"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:07:30 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
wrote:




"Gunner" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:22:32 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"

Are you employed at the moment? Is your job currently threatened by
the
presence of cheaper workers?

It's obvious that his job would be threatened by cheap workers even if
he
was employed.

Its obvious you are a buffoon. See my previous post of a few moments
ago. I have fun pulling you twits chain..because your bias and
ignorance is boundless.


Name and phone number?

Of whom/what?

What a keyboard pussy.



Gunner



"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"


Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:06:42 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:51:37 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" wrote
in
message ...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:22:15 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\"
Frederick"
wrote:


You'll need proof, of course, that they're your e-mails.

They'll all have to be signed Gunner Asch.


Nope..they all have to originate from or
several others with spam protection built in

And I dont need to provide anything. You mean dick in the grand
scheme
of things and are simply a bit of snot flicked on the wall, that I
note in disgust in passing

Snicker

Gunner

Are you employed at the moment? Is your job currently threatened by
the
presence of cheaper workers?

It's obvious that his job would be threatened by cheap workers even
if
he
was employed.


Here's what's NOT obvious to him: The financial structure of many
American
manufacturers has been completely reshaped around the idea of having
goods
made overseas where labor is cheaper. This trend probably won't be
reversed
unless we go to war with China, or when machinery is invented which can
make
things even cheaper at plants in this country. In other words, the
system
is
here to stay.

The other factor which pushes this trend is our price expectations. I
just
emailed Lands End to check my memory, but if I recall the last time I
bought
American made dress shirts from them, they cost $25-$30, maybe more.
That
was at least 10 years ago. I wonder what they'd cost now if they were
still
made here. I would've paid more because I tend to take good care of
them,
but somehow, they (and LL Bean, Van Heusen and everyone else) got the
idea
that it was better to have them made overseas. But, I may not be the
typical
buyer.

No..you are not. You shop like a yuppie. Eastern nor Northwestern
Yuppie at that.

Really? Because of the source? Show me another place to get long & tall
size
shirts which don't also have an extra yard of material around the middle
for
fat slobs. Be sure you've bought from this source, as well as the other
two,
so you're positive the quality's the same. Or, keep the advice.

Shepplers, Sears Big and Tall, Dahles, just to name a few.

Btw..Im 6'3, 210, 18" neck, 36" waist, with a 34-36" inseam. When I
stand, and look down..I can see my belt buckle. I wear a 48 coat.

Hardly a "fat slob" eh?


This relates to illegal workers because we are also accustomed to
certain
price levels for goods and services created here. I've paid between 99
cents
and $1.79 per pound for Romaine or green leaf lettuce over the past
couple
of years, depending on season. I wonder how Gunner would react if
lettuce
suddenly cost $4.00 per pound because the harvesting had to be done by
citizens who expected quite a bit more than minimum wage for the hard
work.

It wouldnt bother me in the slightest..as you keep forgetting
something..we will pay on one end of the chain or the other. Increased
costs of goods and services, or increased taxes and infrastructure
costs to cover the societal costs of illegals. Chuckle..Im quite
familiar with economics of this issue. Btw...it would only increase
the price of a head of lettuce(US produced) by about $.17)

Obesity puts a huge strain on the medical system in this country. Nobody
wants to throw fatsos out of the country.



I suspect Gunner has not spent any time in a restaurant kitchen, either.
In
his book about the restaurant business, Anthony Bourdain commented that
if
you can't speak a little Spanish, and get along well with foreigners,
you
can kiss your restaurant goodbye. Foreigners have been the backbone of
restaurant kitchens for much longer than their immigration status has
been
a
political football.

Snicker..again you are wrong. Ive many friends who own restaurants, as
well as those who work there. Most of the workers are legals, or low
tier citizens. In many cases..they used to be black, now they are
hispanic.

Your job has apparently taken you to every restaurant in America. Nice
work,
if you can get it.


So your job HAS taken you to every restaurant in America? Food critic
perhaps? And you dont buy fat slob clothes?



Assuming you could replace many workers with high school kids (which you
can't, because they don't want these jobs), and your $15.00 entree
becomes
much more costly. All the produce that cannot be harvested by machines
will
become luxury items, like lobster. Gunner has no solution for this.

Odd..before the sudden influx in the last 15 yrs of illegals..I dont
recall $20 bowls of soup, do you? And what percentage of illegals
actually work in agriculture? Its only a small fraction of the total
influx. In fact..the vast majority of ag workers are campasenos..legal
seasonal workers who go home at the end of the season. They are well
paid, minimum wage or better, just like a citizen would be. The
government has focused on Agriculture..so it tends to be far cleaner
than most other industries in the US as far as legal/illegal
workforces go.

Do either of you buffoons actually live where there is an illegal
workforce? You twits sound like a pair of Beltway or northwestern
upscale yuppies who cant find your ass with either hand. Either in
college, living with mommy and daddy, or working in some job that
seldom gets your hands dirty.

Umm...upstate New York. Now, you'll probably say something I'm accustomed
to
hearing in the rec.guns newsgroup, from people who've never set foot out
of
Lower Podunk, KY. Surprise me.

Upscale NY..now there is a hotbed of illegal aliens. Oh **** yes.

The Finger Lakes are beautiful this time of the year, arent they?

So...it appears you have confirmed my comments on needing to get out a
bit more. Pity.

I see. You think the crops here jump off the plants into the boxes by
themselves. What percentage of the workers are legal vs illegal?

"Gunner" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:53:48 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


It will be an eye opener for you.

Gunner Asch


To be perfectly honest, I have different priorities than you do, when it
comes to dealing with violence. I'm more focused on why three or four
elected officials and one or two shady advisors continue to live in
luxury,
at known addresses, even though they're responsible for the deaths of 2800
Americans.

So in other words..you are a preprogrammed partisan hack with only one
agenda and admittedly ignorant as a bag of hammers about the illegal
issue, about which you have expounded at some length.

Would that be a fair summation?

Gunner Asch


Because you incessantly resort to insults, it's clear you feel strongly
about this immigrant thing. I think you should find a way to skim some of
the money just appropriated for your president's big fence. There should be
plenty, since it won't work, and probably will never get started.

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:41:49 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:31:30 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html

Paul K. Dickman



http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal..._United_States



The authoritative source on crime and arrests is the FBI's "Crime in
the United States" (CIUS).
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/

In 2005, there were 14,094,186 arrests in all jurisdictions; 603,000
of those were for violent crime. So, 4.3% of arrests were for violent
crime, and about 96% for property crime, stock fraud, etc.




Been down at the fruit stand comparing apples and oranges again Gunner.

The GAO's numbers are arrests that led to imprisonment, the FBI list all
arrests.

A quick scan down the list shows arrests for disorderly conduct, vagrancy,
runaways and curfew violation.

These arrests add up to 5990217 (or 42.5%) of the 14094186 total

So 11093785 arrests were able to lead to more time in jail than it took for
booking and arraignment.



GAO reported its study of illegal alien prisoners and the offenses for
which they were arrested. Among a sample of illegal alien prisoners,
12% had been arrested for violent crimes.
http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html


Actually, it showed 11.5%, but hell, we'll include arson. That will bring it
up to 11.7% and we'll round up

There are 2,079,000 prisoners (fed, state, local), and 270,000 of
those are illegal aliens.

Conclusions:
* Whether there are 8 million illegals, or 9 or 10 million (we don't
know) among our 300 million US population, illegals are less than 3.4%
of residents.

Wait a minute, You said it was 30 million the other day.

* Yet, they are 13% of prisoners (270K / 2,079K),



According to;
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pjim04.pdf

Blacks make up 38.6% of our prison population when according to;
http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_race.html
they only make up 12.06% of the population.

some groups are overrepresented in out prison population.

Particularly when one of the crimes they are imprisoned for is the fact that
they are illegal aliens.


and 36% of those
arrested and incarcerated for violent crimes (4.3% of 2,079K = 89.4K.
12% of 270K = 32.4K. 32.4 / 89.4 = 36%)

Here again we need to review the FBI data.
The FBI only lists murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault as
violent crimes.

To get Our 12% for illegals, we included all sex crimes including
prostitution, all assaults and (now) arson.

If we add those arrests to the FBI's violent crime number, we get 2097748
equivalent violent crimes out of 11093785 significant arrests or 18.9%

So our 12% is back down below the national average

In fact they make up only 8.2% of those arrested and incarcerated for
violent crimes
(18.9% of 2,079K = 392.9, 12% of 270K = 32.4K. 32.4 /392.9 = 8.2%)



* 88% of illegal alien criminals are not violent criminals, BUT
illegal alien CRIMINALS are three times as likely to commit violent
crime as criminals who are NOT illegal aliens (i.e. either natives,
naturalized, or arrived here legally): 12% vs. 4.3%.


No actually they are only 63.5% as likely to have committed violent crimes
as the prison population on the whole.



What does that mean in the GENERAL population, not just the criminal
underworld? It's BAD.

In a representative sample of 10,000 US residents, there would be:
333 illegal aliens, of those
9 are jailed, and of those
1 (1.1) was arrested for violent crime. One violent criminal per 309
illegal aliens.

Among the sample's 9,667 non-aliens, there would be:
60 jailed, and of those
3 (2.6) were arrested for violent crime. One violent criminal per
3,729 non-aliens.



No, that's is Among the sample's 10000 residents, there would be:
48.8 jailed,(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) and of those 42.456
(48.8 - 13% illegal aliens) would be non aliens 18.9% or 8 were arrested
for violent crime. One violent criminal per
1208 non-aliens.

So, now our illegal alien population is one third as likely as an american
citizen to be incarcerated as a violent criminal.


Paul K. Dickman


"I do my own cooking, and I know a souffle when I see it."
James Garner in the Rockford Files

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...


I'm sorry, I am extremely tired,and I filled the wrong data for the last
paragraph of my last post

I typed
No, that's is Among the sample's 10000 residents, there would be:
48.8 jailed,(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) and of those 42.456
(48.8 - 13% illegal aliens) would be non aliens 18.9% or 8 were arrested
for violent crime. One violent criminal per
1208 non-aliens.

That was the based on data for only state and federal prisons. The numbers
including local jails is below

No, that's is Among the sample's 10000 residents, there would be:
72.8 jailed,(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) and of those 63.336
(72.8 - 13% illegal aliens) would be non aliens 18.9% or 12 were arrested
for violent crime. One violent criminal per 805 non-aliens.


Paul K. Dickman


"I do my own cooking, and I know a souffle when I see it."
James Garner in the Rockford Files

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:32:57 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


Upscale NY..now there is a hotbed of illegal aliens. Oh **** yes.

The Finger Lakes are beautiful this time of the year, arent they?

So...it appears you have confirmed my comments on needing to get out a
bit more. Pity.

I see. You think the crops here jump off the plants into the boxes by
themselves. What percentage of the workers are legal vs illegal?

Crops come off the plants in New York the same way they do in
California. By machine or by hand. Here in California...most of the
workers are legal. Percentage wise..probably 70/30 legal to illegal.
ICE and the State have been fairly proactive. On the other hand..small
business outside of agriculture makes up the majority of illegal labor.
Everything from sweat shops to plating shops to yard service and day
labor. And a large majority of some of those industries are comprised of
illegals. Illegals with false ID.

I was talking to the book keeper of a medium sized machine shop..180
employees. They have as many as 8 people using the same Social Security
number. A total of about 75 people with duplicate Social Security
numbers. And its unlawful for them to find out from the State which
ones are legal or illegal. Once every couple years..the State sends a
query about duplicate numbers..the employees are asked..they slap
themselves on the forehead..say Aheee! My Mistake..and give HR a
different Social Security number. Ive talked candidly with many illegals
in the machine shops I work in..and most of them have at least 3 social
security numbers written down in their wallets or purses, for just such
a circumstance.

We had another DMV ******* popped last week. Taking an existing drivers
license, changing the address and the picture and the name.and selling
them to illegals for $500-1800 a pop. What could be more legitimate...an
ID right straight from the DMV. Too bad its bogus..but it sure LOOKs
legal with all the proper holligrams and embossing.

Though I can buy a decent set of ID at an swap meet or park..give em
$150, a small photo..and hang around for an hour..and a runner brings it
back to me..and damned hard to spot as counterfiet. I know..I used to be
a cop here in California.

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:25:02 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:07:30 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
wrote:




"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:22:32 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"

Are you employed at the moment? Is your job currently threatened by
the
presence of cheaper workers?

It's obvious that his job would be threatened by cheap workers even if
he
was employed.

Its obvious you are a buffoon. See my previous post of a few moments
ago. I have fun pulling you twits chain..because your bias and
ignorance is boundless.


Name and phone number?

Of whom/what?

What a keyboard pussy.

Serious question Bitch.

Of whom/what?

Gunner




Gunner



"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"


Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"




"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:34:22 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:53:48 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


It will be an eye opener for you.

Gunner Asch


To be perfectly honest, I have different priorities than you do, when it
comes to dealing with violence. I'm more focused on why three or four
elected officials and one or two shady advisors continue to live in
luxury,
at known addresses, even though they're responsible for the deaths of 2800
Americans.

So in other words..you are a preprogrammed partisan hack with only one
agenda and admittedly ignorant as a bag of hammers about the illegal
issue, about which you have expounded at some length.

Would that be a fair summation?

Gunner Asch


Because you incessantly resort to insults, it's clear you feel strongly
about this immigrant thing. I think you should find a way to skim some of
the money just appropriated for your president's big fence. There should be
plenty, since it won't work, and probably will never get started.

Yes..I feel VERY strongly about the Illegal issue. And more so everyday.
They closed the ER AND the hospital down here in the small town I live
in..because of the illegals. And now the closest emergency medical care
is 42 miles away. People are dying in transit now...because of Illegals.
Property taxes are high..California has one of the highest tax rates in
the US..because of Illegals. School districts are overcrowded and dumbed
down because of illegals. Crime is way up and in many places, its no
longer safe to travel, because of illegals.

The Fence? Its going up. Why do you say it wont work? Many stretches
along Californias southern borders are already working.
The anti-illegal movement is growning..the majority of the People are
strongly in favor of stopping illegal immigration..to the tune of some
80 or more percent. So its going up. And when that stretch is
completed..more will go up.

Odd that you should even think about ripping off the government, and by
extension..the People.

It would appear, that no only are you stupid (statement of fact) but
also have serious charector issues.

Its only an insult when its not true. Nothing Ive said so far..that you
consider an :insult:...has been untrue. Though from your point of
view..deep in denial..I can understand it. Child molesters dont like to
be labled child molesters anymore than the buffoonish like to be labled
buffoons.

Must such to be you.

So kick back, enjoy the fall colors, get ready for winter and let the
heavy issues be settled by people who actually give a ****.

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:14:06 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:35:59 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:57:14 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
om...


The authoritative source on crime and arrests is the FBI's "Crime in
the United States" (CIUS).
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/

In 2005, there were 14,094,186 arrests in all jurisdictions; 603,000
of those were for violent crime. So, 4.3% of arrests were for violent
crime, and about 96% for property crime, stock fraud, etc.

GAO reported its study of illegal alien prisoners and the offenses for
which they were arrested. Among a sample of illegal alien prisoners,
12% had been arrested for violent crimes.
http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html

There are 2,079,000 prisoners (fed, state, local), and 270,000 of
those are illegal aliens.

Conclusions:
* Whether there are 8 million illegals, or 9 or 10 million (we don't
know) among our 300 million US population, illegals are less than 3.4%
of residents.
* Yet, they are 13% of prisoners (270K / 2,079K), and 36% of those
arrested and incarcerated for violent crimes (4.3% of 2,079K = 89.4K.
12% of 270K = 32.4K. 32.4 / 89.4 = 36%)
* 88% of illegal alien criminals are not violent criminals, BUT
illegal alien CRIMINALS are three times as likely to commit violent
crime as criminals who are NOT illegal aliens (i.e. either natives,
naturalized, or arrived here legally): 12% vs. 4.3%.

What does that mean in the GENERAL population, not just the criminal
underworld? It's BAD.

In a representative sample of 10,000 US residents, there would be:
333 illegal aliens, of those
9 are jailed, and of those
1 (1.1) was arrested for violent crime. One violent criminal per 309
illegal aliens.

Among the sample's 9,667 non-aliens, there would be:
60 jailed, and of those
3 (2.6) were arrested for violent crime. One violent criminal per
3,729 non-aliens.

So the illegal alien GENERAL population has a propensity for violent
crime 12 times that of the remainder of the US population. (3,729 /
309 = 12.1)



Two things:

1) My toaster failed to kill me for the 8 billionth time. Has it made a
tactical error?


2) Get me some stats showing other populations in THIS country which are
overrepresented in the prisons.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Interesting stats. What do they mean to you?

It means that there are certain segments of our society who are more
prone to crime/violence than others, for a number of reasons.

And what do they mean to you?

Gunner

I agree with your last statement. But, those numbers don't indicate anything
about illegal immigrants unless more detail is provided.

was this your question or not?:

"Get me some stats showing other populations in THIS country which are
overrepresented in the prisons."

Or are you trying to do another goalpost change once that I provided
them from irrefutable sources?

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:08:07 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...


I'm sorry, I am extremely tired,and I filled the wrong data for the last
paragraph of my last post

I typed
No, that's is Among the sample's 10000 residents, there would be:
48.8 jailed,(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) and of those 42.456
(48.8 - 13% illegal aliens) would be non aliens 18.9% or 8 were arrested
for violent crime. One violent criminal per
1208 non-aliens.

That was the based on data for only state and federal prisons. The numbers
including local jails is below

No, that's is Among the sample's 10000 residents, there would be:
72.8 jailed,(http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) and of those 63.336
(72.8 - 13% illegal aliens) would be non aliens 18.9% or 12 were arrested
for violent crime. One violent criminal per 805 non-aliens.

You also missed this data source

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3