"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
link.net...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
.net...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I
enjoy the dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent
lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot
more
people than cigars do.
Tom,
As a former smoker I always thought smoking was an enjoyable,
filthy, unhealthy habit. I understood non smokers who did not want
to smell or inhale 2nd hand smoke. Since the mid 80's I only smoked
outside and tried to make sure it was not blowing towards non
smokers.

Even if 2nd hand smoke was not proven to unhealthy, the smell alone
is offensive to non cigar smokers, even cigarette smokers.


Even if smoking is deadly, it is a free choice item. I can and do
enjoy it being banned from the workplace and bars and dining
establishments here in California. But this is supposed to be a free
country. If you want to smoke in your house, or car, you should be
able to. Ballot measure this election to put a $2.60 tax per pack of
ciggies. F'n do gooders. They say it will cut smoking, and 80% will
go to hospitals for payment of healthcare costs. It is still some
fanatic group enforcing their mores on another group. Short Wave is
a health care basket case from what I understand, but it is his
choice to smoke. I used to race cars, also can be unhealthy, but it
is still an action of free (well expensive) choice.


Here (NY), when the tax jumped in a big way, the two major
manufacturers apparently had enough room in their margins to whack the
price. They're still about five bucks a pack. Predictions were around
seven. Never happened.


But is not right for the government to decide to control some behaviors
via taxation while favoring others. Where the hell is the freedom of
choice? Some extremist group (like PETA?) gets the majority of congress
people bought and passes a $50 a fish caught tax. You still happy with
that? You are in the grocery business, Carbs are bad for you, so a tax
of $0.03 an ounce is placed on carbs. You going to cut your prices.
And why should the private company have to cut prices to offset a tax?


I didn't say I was happy with the tax idea. I simply said that in some
cases, it may have no final effect on the price.


$2.60 a pack tax. No affect on price?


Before the ***LATEST*** tax increase, they were $4.25-ish. After, they
were in the sixes. That lasted a month or two, at which point, they
settled down to $4.85-$5.25. Since the govmint didn't decrease their
meddling, it's clear that the big drop came from manufacturers. I know a
C-store owner. He's described the pricing to me.

A friend in Rhode Island complains the price is still in the sixes. Is the
tax that much higher in RI than NY?

"ACP" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
link.net...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
.net...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in
message ...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but
I enjoy the dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent
lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot
more
people than cigars do.
Tom,
As a former smoker I always thought smoking was an enjoyable,
filthy, unhealthy habit. I understood non smokers who did not want
to smell or inhale 2nd hand smoke. Since the mid 80's I only
smoked outside and tried to make sure it was not blowing towards
non smokers.

Even if 2nd hand smoke was not proven to unhealthy, the smell alone
is offensive to non cigar smokers, even cigarette smokers.


Even if smoking is deadly, it is a free choice item. I can and do
enjoy it being banned from the workplace and bars and dining
establishments here in California. But this is supposed to be a
free country. If you want to smoke in your house, or car, you
should be able to. Ballot measure this election to put a $2.60 tax
per pack of ciggies. F'n do gooders. They say it will cut smoking,
and 80% will go to hospitals for payment of healthcare costs. It is
still some fanatic group enforcing their mores on another group.
Short Wave is a health care basket case from what I understand, but
it is his choice to smoke. I used to race cars, also can be
unhealthy, but it is still an action of free (well expensive)
choice.


Here (NY), when the tax jumped in a big way, the two major
manufacturers apparently had enough room in their margins to whack
the price. They're still about five bucks a pack. Predictions were
around seven. Never happened.


But is not right for the government to decide to control some
behaviors via taxation while favoring others. Where the hell is the
freedom of choice? Some extremist group (like PETA?) gets the majority
of congress people bought and passes a $50 a fish caught tax. You
still happy with that? You are in the grocery business, Carbs are bad
for you, so a tax of $0.03 an ounce is placed on carbs. You going to
cut your prices. And why should the private company have to cut prices
to offset a tax?


I didn't say I was happy with the tax idea. I simply said that in some
cases, it may have no final effect on the price.


$2.60 a pack tax. No affect on price?


Before the ***LATEST*** tax increase, they were $4.25-ish. After, they
were in the sixes. That lasted a month or two, at which point, they
settled down to $4.85-$5.25. Since the govmint didn't decrease their
meddling, it's clear that the big drop came from manufacturers. I know a
C-store owner. He's described the pricing to me.

A friend in Rhode Island complains the price is still in the sixes. Is
the tax that much higher in RI than NY?

Answered my own question:

As of 1/1/2006

NY - $1.50/pack (No. 10 in the US)
RI - $2.46/pack (highest in the US)

http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/cigarett.html

Dan wrote:
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

On 10/28/2006 6:25 AM, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I
enjoy the dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot more
people than cigars do.


The objection patrons have to others smoking in restaurants has
nothing to do with the health of the smoker, but with the stench the
burning tobacco creates and the health hazards transmitted by
second-hand smoke.

More and more restaurants are converting to total "No Smoking,"
either on their own or because local or state laws dictate it. It's
the smart thing to do.


My dad handled it nicely once in a restaurant. Tables were very close
together. A guy at the next table was smoking a cigar, and the smoke
was basically engulfing our table. It really messes with the enjoyment
of food, so my dad VERY politely asked him if he could either put it
out, or go to the bar, since they were done eating anyway. The guy
just said "No". My dad asked him again, politely. Again "No". My dad
got up, snatched the cigar out of the guy's hand, dunked it into his
water glass, said "Thanks very much", and sat down. Cigar boy left.


Sure he did.

I believe Doug on this one. It is a clue to his "character" development
or lack thereof.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..
Dan wrote:
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

On 10/28/2006 6:25 AM, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I
enjoy the dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot more
people than cigars do.


The objection patrons have to others smoking in restaurants has nothing
to do with the health of the smoker, but with the stench the burning
tobacco creates and the health hazards transmitted by second-hand
smoke.

More and more restaurants are converting to total "No Smoking," either
on their own or because local or state laws dictate it. It's the smart
thing to do.


My dad handled it nicely once in a restaurant. Tables were very close
together. A guy at the next table was smoking a cigar, and the smoke was
basically engulfing our table. It really messes with the enjoyment of
food, so my dad VERY politely asked him if he could either put it out,
or go to the bar, since they were done eating anyway. The guy just said
"No". My dad asked him again, politely. Again "No". My dad got up,
snatched the cigar out of the guy's hand, dunked it into his water
glass, said "Thanks very much", and sat down. Cigar boy left.


Sure he did.

I believe Doug on this one. It is a clue to his "character" development or
lack thereof.

What would you have done, PatBert, if you'd just gotten your main course,
and there were no empty tables to move to? Maybe ask the guy to pay for your
dinner, since it was ruined?

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:36:18 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I enjoy the
dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot more
people than cigars do.
Tom,
As a former smoker I always thought smoking was an enjoyable, filthy,
unhealthy habit. I understood non smokers who did not want to smell or
inhale 2nd hand smoke. Since the mid 80's I only smoked outside and
tried to make sure it was not blowing towards non smokers.

Even if 2nd hand smoke was not proven to unhealthy, the smell alone is
offensive to non cigar smokers, even cigarette smokers.

I have no problem with that and I understand that not everybody likes
the smell of a good cigar.

Further, I can appreciate the lack of taste and refinement that others
prefer not to exhibit when selecting, say, a pack of cigars for $3.00
at the 7/11 vs fine hand rolled cigars from a certain nation south of
Florida.

However my point is simple. I'd put up good money and bet that
drinking alcohol is more of a detriment to your health and well being
statistically than being near a person smoking a good cigar.

Once again, you aren't being even handed. For the alcohol, you have the
person consuming directly, and for the tobacco, you have the person
"being near" another person smoking. So, I'll bet that a person "being
near" someone who has a beer is statistically better off than the
person standing next to someone smoking a stinking nasty cigar.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 28 Oct 2006 10:05:10 -0700, "basskisser"
wrote:


Calif Bill wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
k.net...

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I
enjoy the dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot more
people than cigars do.
Tom,
As a former smoker I always thought smoking was an enjoyable, filthy,
unhealthy habit. I understood non smokers who did not want to smell or
inhale 2nd hand smoke. Since the mid 80's I only smoked outside and
tried to make sure it was not blowing towards non smokers.

Even if 2nd hand smoke was not proven to unhealthy, the smell alone is
offensive to non cigar smokers, even cigarette smokers.


Even if smoking is deadly, it is a free choice item. I can and do enjoy
it being banned from the workplace and bars and dining establishments
here in California. But this is supposed to be a free country. If you
want to smoke in your house, or car, you should be able to. Ballot
measure this election to put a $2.60 tax per pack of ciggies. F'n do
gooders. They say it will cut smoking, and 80% will go to hospitals for
payment of healthcare costs. It is still some fanatic group enforcing
their mores on another group. Short Wave is a health care basket case
from what I understand, but it is his choice to smoke. I used to race
cars, also can be unhealthy, but it is still an action of free (well
expensive) choice.


Here (NY), when the tax jumped in a big way, the two major manufacturers
apparently had enough room in their margins to whack the price. They're
still about five bucks a pack. Predictions were around seven. Never
happened.


But is not right for the government to decide to control some behaviors via
taxation while favoring others.

Why? Smokers take a huge amount of money from the government when they
get sick and cancerous because many many smokers can not afford
healthcare.

Bull****.
--
Do you REALLY think that all smokers are able to afford good medical
care? Really??
You do realize that statistically, smokers less affluent than
non-smokers, don't you?

Calif Bill wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...

Calif Bill wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...

Calif Bill wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I
enjoy
the
dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent
lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot
more
people than cigars do.
--
I'll bet you're wrong.

By the way, you can't partition off just cigars, unless you do the
same
with alcohol, like compare cigar related deaths to, say, gin related
deaths.

http://tiki.oneworld.net/pollution/smoking.html

says that 434,000 people die each year from smoking in the U.S and
60,000 die each year from second hand smoke.

Then this site puts alcohol deaths at 100,000:

http://www.bookmark-manager.com/permalink-41


And I think they are full of it, to claim 60k deaths from second hand
smoke.
If that was true, you would have a heck of a lot more than 434k dead
from
direct injection. I one of those numbers that activitists can throw
out
and
feel good, and hard to prove otherwise.

No those figures are pretty accurate. They don't just dream them up, as
you think. Statistics is an interesting field, and if you think that
they just come up with numbers off the top of their head, you are sadly
mistaken.


There is so much controversy on 2nd hand illnesses. My buddy smoked, he
is
healthy but his wife got breast cancer. Is that a 2nd hand effect?

Could be.


Could be or may not be. But that is the problem with the statistics.

Only fools and idiots prefer to make up their own minds regardless of
data showing otherwise.

"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:36:18 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit, but I
enjoy the
dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a lot more
people than cigars do.
Tom,
As a former smoker I always thought smoking was an enjoyable, filthy,
unhealthy habit. I understood non smokers who did not want to smell or
inhale 2nd hand smoke. Since the mid 80's I only smoked outside and
tried to make sure it was not blowing towards non smokers.

Even if 2nd hand smoke was not proven to unhealthy, the smell alone is
offensive to non cigar smokers, even cigarette smokers.

I have no problem with that and I understand that not everybody likes
the smell of a good cigar.

Further, I can appreciate the lack of taste and refinement that others
prefer not to exhibit when selecting, say, a pack of cigars for $3.00
at the 7/11 vs fine hand rolled cigars from a certain nation south of
Florida.

However my point is simple. I'd put up good money and bet that
drinking alcohol is more of a detriment to your health and well being
statistically than being near a person smoking a good cigar.

Once again, you aren't being even handed. For the alcohol, you have the
person consuming directly, and for the tobacco, you have the person
"being near" another person smoking. So, I'll bet that a person "being
near" someone who has a beer is statistically better off than the
person standing next to someone smoking a stinking nasty cigar.

To quote one of your favorite responses, "cite".

"ACP" wrote in message
...

Once again, you aren't being even handed. For the alcohol, you have the
person consuming directly, and for the tobacco, you have the person
"being near" another person smoking. So, I'll bet that a person "being
near" someone who has a beer is statistically better off than the
person standing next to someone smoking a stinking nasty cigar.

To quote one of your favorite responses, "cite".


Why a cite? Have you ever heard of anyone being harmed by standing next to a
person having a beer? Refrain from silly examples (drinker falls on adjacent
person, spills beer on adjacent person, starts bar fight, etc).

"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...

Calif Bill wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...

Calif Bill wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...

Calif Bill wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
oups.com...

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:02:38 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

If you going to smoke, smoke an Altria brand. Filthy habit,
but I
enjoy
the
dividends.

Filthy habits are drinking to excess and endangering innocent
lives.

I'd be willing to bet that drinking alcohol kills a hell of a
lot
more
people than cigars do.
--
I'll bet you're wrong.

By the way, you can't partition off just cigars, unless you do
the
same
with alcohol, like compare cigar related deaths to, say, gin
related
deaths.

http://tiki.oneworld.net/pollution/smoking.html

says that 434,000 people die each year from smoking in the U.S
and
60,000 die each year from second hand smoke.

Then this site puts alcohol deaths at 100,000:

http://www.bookmark-manager.com/permalink-41


And I think they are full of it, to claim 60k deaths from second
hand
smoke.
If that was true, you would have a heck of a lot more than 434k
dead
from
direct injection. I one of those numbers that activitists can
throw
out
and
feel good, and hard to prove otherwise.

No those figures are pretty accurate. They don't just dream them up,
as
you think. Statistics is an interesting field, and if you think that
they just come up with numbers off the top of their head, you are
sadly
mistaken.


There is so much controversy on 2nd hand illnesses. My buddy smoked,
he
is
healthy but his wife got breast cancer. Is that a 2nd hand effect?

Could be.


Could be or may not be. But that is the problem with the statistics.

Only fools and idiots prefer to make up their own minds regardless of
data showing otherwise.


And where is the data?