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I am looking at a Lincoln Concord canoe it is 15 years old and kevlar.
It is 16'6", I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this boat? How does it handle? I am looking for something to go with either my son or daughter or be able to manage it myself. Would be used mostly on slower creeks rivers. Thanks Toby |
#2
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#3
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![]() riverman wrote: wrote: I am looking at a Lincoln Concord canoe it is 15 years old and kevlar. It is 16'6", I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this boat? How does it handle? I am looking for something to go with either my son or daughter or be able to manage it myself. Would be used mostly on slower creeks rivers. Thanks Toby As a boat, it sounds perfect. The shallow arch bottom will give it good stability, the symmetric hull means you can paddle it solo or tandem, the length and beam are good for a fla****er or slower stream situation. Overall, it sounds like an excellent choice. However, you need to look closely at the Kevlar hull and the trim. Are the rails and thwarts wood (ash) or vinyl? If they are vinyl, they are probably fine, but if they are ash then you should look closely to see if there is any rot or cracking. Woodwork is easily replaced, but you should plan on redoing it if it needs it for two reasons: first (and foremost), to ensure it is safe and will ensure that the boat is stable and solid. Secondly, for pride of ownership. Nothing like doing a little maintenance on a boat to make it 'yours'. Inspect the kevlar closely. If it has a foam-filled kevlar hull, be sure there are NO cracks into the foam core. Kevlar is not as easy to repair as fiberglass, and any failure of the hull can be the beginning of the end. A new boat of this type is about $2000, so if it is being sold for substantially less, look very closely at it. You don't want ANY weak spots or cracks. Let us know how it looks: if there are any spots that look suspicious, you can post a picture of it and some of the technicians here can give you feedback. Riverman, Thanks for answering my post. What do you look for in an older Kevlar canoe? It has vinyl rails and he states there is slight damage to the cane seats. I have not gone out to look at it yet. My understanding is that it was purchased 15 years ago and was used for a couple of seasons and then stored out of the sun for the last 12 years. Shold a boat be hung upside down? It is a older model that was built with a fiberglass core vs. the foam core they use today and weighs 55 lbs. What is considered light? He is asking $600 for it. I haven't started looking for a boat for very long and do not have a feel for the prices. Don't know if I should jump on it or hold off as I am in upstate NY and winter is just starting. Thanks in advance, Toby Hi Toby: Don't sweat the seats...cane has a life expectancy and you can replace them easily and affordably. Inspect the vinyl rails and thwarts by looking to see if they have any creases from being wrapped. These are easy to spot: either the lines will be twisted of kilter, or else there will be that white discoloration you get when you stress plastic. If there IS deformation, see if the vinyl is still rigid and strong: most likely the rails and thwarts will be okay. Also look closely to see that none (or not too many) of the rivets have popped out. All these things are easily fixable. The hull, however, is where the money is. Kevlar hulls have some serious advantages (lightweight, durable) but also some constraints (expensive, hard to repair, wear patterns). The following is from http://tinyurl.com/ylrs9u "Kevlar is a weaved material, similar to a cloth fabric, and appears honey-gold in it's raw form. This material weave is soaked in resin, shaped and cured to create the canoe hull. Kevlar frizzes if it gets damaged so the hull should have an outside coating made up of a number of possible materials, including fiberglass (also possible weaved in with the Kevlar), composites, polyethylene, and resin gel coat. Some manufacturers are taking Kevlar fibers and weaving them with fiberglass, which makes for a somewhat heavier but more durable canoe (but still typically lighter than Royalite and almost 1/2 the weight of full fiberglass). It is the easiest material to portage being very light weight. It is also very slippery which in part makes it extremely ideal for whitewater. Kevlar in it's pure form is not the most ideal material for a canoe. Although it is very durable and can take shock very well, severe shock can crack a hull. Kevlar is very difficult to repair and the repairs are next to impossible to hide. The gel coat is easily abraded, and exposed Kevlar will shred out in fine fibers, next to impossible to repair." To inspect the hull, first look closely to see if there are any cracks or 'shatter marks'. These would be from someone hitting a rock really hard, or possibly someone hitting the canoe with a car while it was stored. If there are cracks or shatter marks, be sure that the hull does not flex unusually AT ALL beneath them. Also look to see if the hull has been abraded: this will look like a fuzzy patch where the coating is scrubbed off and the kevlar cloth beneath is fraying. Even without the fraying, see if the surface coating has been worn off in any areas larger than a dollar bill. If it has any cracks or serious abrading, I'd bypass this boat and look for an ABS one. Canoes as a general rule do not have to be hung up: they don't deform under their own weight, and vinyl rails do not rot from ground contact. However, in the northern climes they often spend time stored against a house with a snowbank on top of them (or right side up with a snowbank inside them) and this can be seriously damaging. I've even seen them stored neatly inside a barn, protected from the elements, but crammed full of firewood. Not good. Be sure the bottom of the hull does not 'oilcan', that is; pop in and out like the lid of a Snapple bottle. Since your boat has spent its lifetime out of the water, the potential damages will be different than those we usually look for: be sure to look closely inside and outside the hull for cracks, abrasion, deformation or discoloration (from gasoline or kerosene spills), or anything that does not 'look right'. Even if its in good shape, be aware than you can find an excellent first- or second-hand ABS boat for $600. Of course, thats a bargain for a kevlar hull, but just because its a bargain doesn't mean that its the best value for money. At 55 lbs, its not a huge savings in weight; Royalex hulls come in at around 60lbs (new style kevlar boats can be feather-light), and since you are not planning to do extreme whitewater, hard-core wilderness trips or rocky rivers, the durability of Kevlar is not a real factor. Without actually seeing the hull myself, I could not recommend you to buy it or not. But if its in good shape, then its certainly not a rip-off. Good luck ;-) --riverman |
#4
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Thanks riverman, I will post when I figure it out...
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#5
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Am looking at a boat from Dicks Sporting goods...they have it branded
as a Woodsman by Wilderness. Wilderness is part of Confluence Watersports which owns Dagger and Mad river, looks like it is made by Mad River it is a Horizon 15 with wood/nylon webed seats. It is a royalex boat that is 15'2" and weighs 56lbs. Has vinyl rails, It is on clearance for $450 right now....http://www.madrivercanoe.com/zoom_bo...zon_15_rx.jpg# Any experience with one/ royalex? Thanks Toby wrote: Thanks riverman, I will post when I figure it out... |
#6
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wrote:
Am looking at a boat from Dicks Sporting goods...they have it branded as a Woodsman by Wilderness. Wilderness is part of Confluence Watersports which owns Dagger and Mad river, looks like it is made by Mad River it is a Horizon 15 with wood/nylon webed seats. It is a royalex boat that is 15'2" and weighs 56lbs. Has vinyl rails, It is on clearance for $450 right now....http://www.madrivercanoe.com/zoom_bo...zon_15_rx.jpg# Any experience with one/ royalex? Thanks Toby Ready for another treatise? :-) Short version: ABS is usually very good, Mad River can be quite good, and the price is maybe too good to be true. Longer version: 'Royalex' is the trade name for one of Uniroyal's particular layouts of a sheet made from a foam ABS core sandwiched between two ABS layers, with a protective vinyl coating over the whole thing. Each boat manufacturer has their own particular formula for the thickness of the foam core, the thickness or number of sandwiching layers, and the type of protective coating, but Uniroyal makes them all. When we refer to an ABS boat, Royalex (or Royalite, a thinner, lighter layup) is what we are usually referring to. ABS is a very common boat hull material, and spans the range of qualities of boats. There are some rather cheap boats made of ABS, some good midrange ones, and some top of the line ones. The difference in boat quality is primarily factor of quality of the ABS. Some boats, like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad. Older ABS, such as that used in Blue Hole canoes, was laid up quite thick to give it rigidity, producing a solid, but heavy, boat. This is currently considered bad, but once upon a time it was state-of-the-art. Most modern boat manufacturers, such as Mad River, Old Town, Whitesell, Dagger and Lincoln, use a layup that is thick enough to be rigid, but not so thick as to be heavy. Manufacturers are figuring it all out and are getting good at getting strength without too much weight. As a hull material, it has tremendous advantages: very durable, flexible (will pop back into shape if you bend your boat around a rock), quite impervious to the elements (unless you scrape off the plastic coating, upon which UV rays will dramatically weaken the ABS), forgiving (over time or with a little heat applied from a hair dryer, creases and wrinkles will disappear), and slippery on the rocks (depending on the covering material). Your grandkids could well inherit your new ABS boat. It does have some disadvantages: an ABS boat can be pretty heavy, they are hell to repair, and once they DO wear off the plastic coating, they will silently get weaker and weaker from the UV rays. I have an ABS Blue Hole from the 1970s that is almost unusable from UV rot. On the other hand, I have gotten several hundred thousand miles out of it and bought it looking like a pretzel... So in general, I think ABS is an excellent choice of material for a beginner. Its as close as you can get to a 'wash and wear' boat; you can leave it out all winter, it requires almost no care, and can withstand a lot of abuse. Now, about the hull: Mad River used to be one of the premiere boat manufacturers in the world....I believe their owner, Jim Henry, was the first to make canoes out of ABS. About 7 years ago he sold his company to Confluence Watersports, and their manufacturing operation moved to North Carolina. Unfortunately, many of his workers did not want to relocate from Vermont, so the manufacturing skill and experience did not move with the company. For the first few years, the quality of MR boats deteriorated significantly, and eventually Confluence moved operations to South Carolina, retooled and retrained, and started improving their turnouts. From what I hear, they have gotten back to making pretty good boats, but their hulls aren't yet up to the standard of older 'New Hampshire' hulls. They tend to be a bit heavy, and often have weak spots and cosmetic blems. That being said, they still have a good reputation. I own two MRs, but they are Vermont hulls. I have seen several NC and SC hulls that were not so great, so look closely for 'blems' in the boat. These will be any of the following: - open blisters that look like little pockmarks or craters. They can be as small as a pencil lead, or as large as a quarter. Don't accept ANY, as they are places where the ABS core is exposed to the UV rays. Sometimes they come in clusters, other times they come singly. -swirly patterns in the plastic covering. These represent different densities of the plastic, and over time the covering can delaminate at these places. -big airbubble blisters. These can be as big as your hand, or even larger. These aren't fatal, however they are unsightly and show weak spots in the layup. -oilcanning (flexing of the bottom of the boat). This is indicitive of a thin layup, and means the boat is not as rigid as it should be, and will be a bit harder to handle in current. Now for the boat itself. What you told us is a bit concerning. By 'Wilderness', I assume you mean "Wilderness Systems", which is owned by CW. Problem is, Wilderness Systems boats are kayaks and SOTs (sit on tops)....they don't make canoes (as far as I know). If CW is taking one of their MR Horizons (which is a fine boat) and relabeling it as a WS 'Woodsman', you need to find out why. It might be a new marketing deal, or their might be a bad hull that they don't want to put the 'MR' name on, or you might have some of your facts mixed up. I don't know of any "Wilderness Woodsman" boat. But if its a MR Horizon 16' for $450, they are selling it for less than half its market price. Check it out VERY carefully....it might be an excellent find, or it might be a lemon in disguise. Personally, I'd be a bit wary. Anyone else got input? --riverman |
#7
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![]() riverman wrote: wrote: Am looking at a boat from Dicks Sporting goods...they have it branded as a Woodsman by Wilderness. Wilderness is part of Confluence Watersports which owns Dagger and Mad river, looks like it is made by Mad River it is a Horizon 15 with wood/nylon webed seats. It is a royalex boat that is 15'2" and weighs 56lbs. Has vinyl rails, It is on clearance for $450 right now....http://www.madrivercanoe.com/zoom_bo...zon_15_rx.jpg# Any experience with one/ royalex? Thanks Toby Now for the boat itself. What you told us is a bit concerning. By 'Wilderness', I assume you mean "Wilderness Systems", which is owned by CW. Problem is, Wilderness Systems boats are kayaks and SOTs (sit on tops)....they don't make canoes (as far as I know). If CW is taking one of their MR Horizons (which is a fine boat) and relabeling it as a WS 'Woodsman', you need to find out why. It might be a new marketing deal, or their might be a bad hull that they don't want to put the 'MR' name on, or you might have some of your facts mixed up. I don't know of any "Wilderness Woodsman" boat. But if its a MR Horizon 16' for $450, they are selling it for less than half its market price. Check it out VERY carefully....it might be an excellent find, or it might be a lemon in disguise. Personally, I'd be a bit wary. Anyone else got input? --riverman I found some posts on paddling.net about this particular canoe, from what I've read the older ones were made by Bell but the newer ones are made by MR. HTH Here's the thread, it's from last summer: http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=501503 Here's a few of the posts: Answer - Mad River Horizon 15 Posted by: blk on Jun-30-06 8:47 PM (EST) Dicks Sporting Goods is having an Outdoor Expo in the parking lot outside their big store in Robinson Township, PA today. I saw a Woodsman sitting right next to a Mad River Canoe. I saw identical seat drops, very similar deck plates - with a round circle stamped ito the plastic in the same size and position where Mad River puts their rabbit. Checked the HINs, both had the same MICs - WEM - Confluence Water sports. Spoke the the Mad River Rep. - Who building these boats for Dicks? Answer: We do. BLK horizon 15 Posted by: Ben7 on Jul-01-06 11:54 PM (EST) Yeah, After more checking on the specs I believe that this is a Horizon 15. I emailed the company to try to get verification, but they didn't respond. Whoever made it it is a nice canoe at a good price. Also the "woodsman" lettering peals off very easily. Just get yourself a decal of a rabbit smoking a pipe and no one will know the difference : ). woodsman canoe Posted by: ml1804 on Jul-01-06 8:29 PM (EST) I've had the same questions about this canoe. I'm considering purchasing the same canoe myself. After several visits to the store, and several phone calls to Dicks, here is what I have found. My first visit, the salesperson had no idea who made the canoe. When I called on the phone, they told me it was built by wilderness designs. I called back to verify, and another salesperson told me that the manufacturer was definately Bell. They don't have it in stock, and they won't order one until I give them a 50% deposit. I'm still confused. I'm not sure if this helps. |
#8
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Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote:
Some boats, like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad. Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a different material altogether. The second sentence is correct. Steve |
#9
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![]() Steve Cramer wrote: Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote: Some boats, like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad. Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a different material altogether. The second sentence is correct. Steve You are correct, sir; Colemans are not ABS. I should have saved Coleman for the treatise on Poly boats. There is also the entire constraint of which materials are naturally buoyant or not, as well as which ones can be molded with sharper angles, and also which ones offer the best puncture resistance. Meanwhile, what do you guys think of this whole Horizon/Woodsman deal? It sounds like MR is looking to dump a bunch of Horizon-16s on the market under the radar. Anyone got any industry contacts to find out what's up? Sounds to me like CW generated a bunch of hulls that had a high percentage of blems, so they dumped the whole lot on the market under a false brand to avoid tarnishing the MR repuation. Maybe they learned from their Explorer growing pains. --riverman |
#10
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![]() riverman wrote: Steve Cramer wrote: Amongst a very learned treatise on canoe materials, riverman wrote: Some boats, like Coleman, use a very thin layup of ABS to save weight, and aluminum tubes to help it keep its shape. This is bad. Colemans are/were made of RAM-X polyethylene, not ABS, which is a different material altogether. The second sentence is correct. Steve You are correct, sir; Colemans are not ABS. I should have saved Coleman for the treatise on Poly boats. There is also the entire constraint of which materials are naturally buoyant or not, as well as which ones can be molded with sharper angles, and also which ones offer the best puncture resistance. Meanwhile, what do you guys think of this whole Horizon/Woodsman deal? It sounds like MR is looking to dump a bunch of Horizon-16s on the market under the radar. Anyone got any industry contacts to find out what's up? Sounds to me like CW generated a bunch of hulls that had a high percentage of blems, so they dumped the whole lot on the market under a false brand to avoid tarnishing the MR repuation. Maybe they learned from their Explorer growing pains. --riverman I think I am going to go and look one over thoughly...If it looks good I am going to pick one up... Will let you know what I find. |
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