Hi Folks, I just joined this group a few minutes ago. Rather than
search the postings, I'm going to ask a newbie question which has
probably been asked a million times....

What kayak should I buy?

Here's the skinny, I may (90% probability) be transfered (as part of
my job, not as soem sort of Star Trek beaming up and over process) to
Stockholm, Sweden. My wife and I are trying to figure out what hobbies
we can do and since we've both kayaked (in the sea) several times in
the past few years, we though we'd like to take up kayaking much more
seriously.

I don't want to buy a beginner kayak that I'd grow out of real quick.
I don't want something too advanced either.

I just bought an issue of "Canoe & Kayak" and wow there are a lot of
manufacturers of Kayak. Google searches also reveal numerous
sources.....I was also surprised how expensive these babies can be!

Or maybe I should rent.....http://xray.bmc.uu.se/markh/kayak/
kayak_tours.html#SAC

On Feb 11, 8:54 am, "Moby Dick" wrote:
Hi Folks, I just joined this group a few minutes ago. Rather than
search the postings, I'm going to ask a newbie question which has
probably been asked a million times....

What kayak should I buy?

Here's the skinny, I may (90% probability) be transfered (as part of
my job, not as soem sort of Star Trek beaming up and over process) to
Stockholm, Sweden. My wife and I are trying to figure out what hobbies
we can do and since we've both kayaked (in the sea) several times in
the past few years, we though we'd like to take up kayaking much more
seriously.

I don't want to buy a beginner kayak that I'd grow out of real quick.
I don't want something too advanced either.

I just bought an issue of "Canoe & Kayak" and wow there are a lot of
manufacturers of Kayak. Google searches also reveal numerous
sources.....I was also surprised how expensive these babies can be!

The Stockholm archipelago is a great place for kayak touring, and there
are a lot of places in the area to kayak camp. If that sounds attractive
to you, I would recommend a touring (sea) kayak in the 16-17 foot long,
22-24 inches wide range. It may feel a little tender the very first time
you get in it, but you'll soon develop some comfort. I don't know what's
available over there besides Point 65N boats, which are quite nice, but
you obviously want to buy locally from an established dealer. As to the
basic questions, fiberglass is stiffer, lighter, prettier, less sturdy,
more repairable, and about twice as expensive as rotomolded plastic.
Once you're on the water it will be hard to tell the difference. As to
rudder or skeg or neither, I don't have the two weeks to spend debating
the issue, so I'll leave that to others.

There is a kayak rental shop on the harbor in Stockholm where you could
try out some boats, although theirs tend not to be the newest designs.
Don't get run over by a ferry or attached by a swan (long story).

Have a great time.

Steve

Moby Dick wrote:
Hi Folks, I just joined this group a few minutes ago. Rather than
search the postings, I'm going to ask a newbie question which has
probably been asked a million times....

What kayak should I buy?

Here's the skinny, I may (90% probability) be transfered (as part of
my job, not as soem sort of Star Trek beaming up and over process) to
Stockholm, Sweden. My wife and I are trying to figure out what hobbies
we can do and since we've both kayaked (in the sea) several times in
the past few years, we though we'd like to take up kayaking much more
seriously.

I don't want to buy a beginner kayak that I'd grow out of real quick.
I don't want something too advanced either.

I just bought an issue of "Canoe & Kayak" and wow there are a lot of
manufacturers of Kayak. Google searches also reveal numerous
sources.....I was also surprised how expensive these babies can be!

Thank you for the informative reply. You mention fiberglass versus
rotomolded plastic. However, I see many more materials on various web
pages:
Carbon
Kevlar
Fiberglass (as you mentioned)
Proprietary Lay-up (whatever that is)
Fabric-Skin frame (I can imagine)
Hypalon (whatever that is)

Is there a comparison of all these somewhere? TIA

On Feb 11, 9:12 am, Steve Cramer wrote:
The Stockholm archipelago is a great place for kayak touring, and there
are a lot of places in the area to kayak camp. If that sounds attractive
to you, I would recommend a touring (sea) kayak in the 16-17 foot long,
22-24 inches wide range. It may feel a little tender the very first time
you get in it, but you'll soon develop some comfort. I don't know what's
available over there besides Point 65N boats, which are quite nice, but
you obviously want to buy locally from an established dealer. As to the
basic questions, fiberglass is stiffer, lighter, prettier, less sturdy,
more repairable, and about twice as expensive as rotomolded plastic.
{snip]

Add one mo wood.

BTW, I did find some comparisons by googling.

On Feb 11, 11:53 am, "Moby Dick" wrote:
Thank you for the informative reply. You mention fiberglass versus
rotomolded plastic. However, I see many more materials on various web
pages:
Carbon
Kevlar
Fiberglass (as you mentioned)
Proprietary Lay-up (whatever that is)
Fabric-Skin frame (I can imagine)
Hypalon (whatever that is)

[snip]

Moby Dick wrote:
Thank you for the informative reply. You mention fiberglass versus
rotomolded plastic. However, I see many more materials on various web
pages:
Carbon
Kevlar
Fiberglass (as you mentioned)

These three are all forms of composite, with the major difference being
that carbon, Kevlar and carbon fiber/Kevlar boats are typically lighter
than the same model in fiberglass. They have the potential to be
stronger and/or stiffer, but most manufacturers use these materials to
cut weight instead.

Proprietary Lay-up (whatever that is)

It could be pretty much anything, but most likely it's marketing BS.
When you get right down to it, ALL layups (the number, shape, location,
material and order of the of the plies) are proprietary, since every
boat model is different, even from the same manufacturer. Some
manufactures incorporate polyester (Dynel, Diolene) or Nylon into their
layups for specific purposes, but it's nothing to get excited about.

Fabric-Skin frame (I can imagine)
Hypalon (whatever that is)

Skin-on-frame boats come in two basic types, commercial folding boats
and home-built (folding or non-folding). The frames are typically wood,
or aluminum tubing with wood or high UHMW polyethylene frames. The skins
on commercial boats are fabric that's pre-coated with Hypalon or
Neoprene, which is cut into panels that are glued together to form the
skin. Home built boats commonly use polyester or Nylon fabric sewn
around the frame and coated with polyurethane varnish, though neoprene
and Hypalon can be brushed on if desired. Pre-coated fabrics can be
used, but they're more expensive and harder to work with.

Functionally, the biggest differences between all these boats are
weight, cost and portability.

Commercial folding boats are the most expensive - commonly costing over
$4000 - and the most portable. Most tend to be on the short side (under
16') and rather wide, which limits their performance. Weight-wise,
they're in the same range as carbon fiber and Kevlar touring boats.

Boats built with carbon fiber and Kevlar are the next most expensive
(~$3000 - $3500) and are available in a broad range of designs. They
typically weigh between 5 and 15 pounds less than the same boat in
fiberglass and cost between $500 and $1000 more.

Fiberglass boats are the mainstay of the mid-upper end of the market.
They typically range from $1500-$2800. They're good workhorse boats that
can take a lot of abuse.

If you want to build a boat, you can make a skin-on-frame boat for under
$200. Stitch-&-glue and cedar strip boats can be built for under $500.

Is there a comparison of all these somewhere? TIA

Not that I've seen, but you might want to look on Kayak Wiki:

http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page

Brian Nystrom wrote in news:FuLzh.2210$g82.2094
@trndny09:

Moby Dick wrote:
Thank you for the informative reply. You mention fiberglass versus
rotomolded plastic. However, I see many more materials on various web
pages: Carbon
Kevlar
Fiberglass (as you mentioned)

These three are all forms of composite, with the major difference being
that carbon, Kevlar and carbon fiber/Kevlar boats are typically lighter
than the same model in fiberglass. They have the potential to be
stronger and/or stiffer, but most manufacturers use these materials to
cut weight instead.

Basically, you've got to weight the criteria of having a boat that may be a
little easier to carry and load/unload off a vehicle with the difference in
price. Carbon/Kevlar boats may cost significantly more than a fiberglass
boat. On the water, most paddlers are unlikely to notice a signifcant
performance difference.


Proprietary Lay-up (whatever that is)

It could be pretty much anything, but most likely it's marketing BS.
When you get right down to it, ALL layups (the number, shape, location,
material and order of the of the plies) are proprietary, since every
boat model is different, even from the same manufacturer.

I'd have to disagree with that somewhat. Many of the "proprietary" layups
being touted are neither neither fiberglass nor rotomolded (poly), but some
other plastic or combination of materials.

Some
manufactures incorporate polyester (Dynel, Diolene) or Nylon into their
layups for specific purposes, but it's nothing to get excited about.

I also have mostly been unimpressed with most "proprietary layups". Many of
them "look" like fiberglass, and may be as light, but are not as stiff, nor
do they have the advantage of being easily repairable.


Functionally, the biggest differences between all these boats are
weight, cost and portability.

Commercial folding boats are the most expensive - commonly costing over
$4000 - and the most portable. Most tend to be on the short side (under
16') and rather wide, which limits their performance. Weight-wise,
they're in the same range as carbon fiber and Kevlar touring boats.

Boats built with carbon fiber and Kevlar are the next most expensive
(~$3000 - $3500) and are available in a broad range of designs. They
typically weigh between 5 and 15 pounds less than the same boat in
fiberglass and cost between $500 and $1000 more.

Fiberglass boats are the mainstay of the mid-upper end of the market.
They typically range from $1500-$2800. They're good workhorse boats that
can take a lot of abuse.

If you want to build a boat, you can make a skin-on-frame boat for under
$200. Stitch-&-glue and cedar strip boats can be built for under $500.

On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats. I've seen
them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

My advic: Rent a few different boat to determine what kind of boat will
best meet your needs. Look at the used market, or dealers which sell off
their rental fleet at the end of the season.

The boat is just one piece of equipment you'll need. Don't spend all your
money on a better boat and leave little to spend on a paddle, PFD, clothing,
etc. That's especially true for a paddle.

John Fereira wrote:
On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats. I've seen
them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

Do you really mean 5 figures, as in $10,000+ or 4 figures, the first of
which is a 5? I can agree with the second. Careta Boatworks makes a nice
stripper for ~$5000. I think Allen Sinquefield's baidarkas are quite a
bit less. http://www.sinquefieldcustomboatworks.com/index.htm

Of course, they're not in Sweden

Steve

Maybe he meant 5 figures in Swedish kroner.....


On Feb 11, 6:55 pm, Steve Cramer wrote:
John Fereira wrote:
On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats. I've seen
them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

Do you really mean 5 figures, as in $10,000+ or 4 figures, the first of
which is a 5? I can agree with the second. Careta Boatworks makes a nice
stripper for ~$5000. I think Allen Sinquefield's baidarkas are quite a
bit less. http://www.sinquefieldcustomboatworks.com/index.htm

Of course, they're not in Sweden

Steve

Moby Dick wrote:
Or maybe I should rent.....http://xray.bmc.uu.se/markh/kayak/
kayak_tours.html#SAC

Canoe rentals in Sweden:
http://www.canoe-dreams.com/english/...ist.php3?cou=S

HTH


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/