On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:19:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:44:46 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Although I'm not young, I'm still in pretty good shape, and do like
the idea of sailing, having crewed some.

Sure, sailing is great fun but it is difficult to get a boat that
sails well and cruises well, and still meets your shallow draft
requirement. You might want to get an inexpensive day sailor just as
a fun boat. There are lots to choose from, but one of my choices
would be a Flying Scot.

http://www.flyingscot.com/

They are good boats that sail very well and meet your specs with the
exception of cruising. You can beach them and go tent camping of
course. I'm guessing you could pick up a good used one with trailer
for less than $5K.

Boy, you're gonna keep me busy boating on the net for a few more days
now! You've dead on about combining cruising/sailing/shallow draft
capabilities in one boat I can afford. That Mac 26 comes closest
right now.
Ideally, I'd get a Flying Scot for sailing and something like the
Rosborough RF-246 for cruising, but I'm not ready to commit that much
money yet. Too many questions to be answered, especially some
hands-on boating. Now I want to try that Flying Scot, but I've got no
doubt it'll make the Max 26 feel like a dog under sail.
Thanks for the ideas. Now I'll go tell the wife I changed my mind
about buying a boat. I want at least 2 boats.

--Vic

On Mar 24, 12:32�pm, Vic Smith
wrote:
As I do extensive reading in trying to select what boat will suit me
best, I realize just how much fun boating is.
And I haven't even left the basement!
Right now I'm leaning toward the MacGregor 26M.
Might be new, might be used. *It's usually called a "motor sailor" *
It's a high volume boat, inexpensive, and generally frowned upon by
the "high speed" sailing crowd. *When under sail it doesn't perform as
well as dedicated sailboats, though no single keel sailboat of similar
size is exactly a speed demon.
Some of the Mac's sailing performance deficit is inherent in its dual
purpose design, and some appears to be because those who buy this Mac
are not hard core sailors, and don't lend much effort to getting the
most of its sailing capabilities.
Everybody has different preferences in what they want from a boat, and
I'm laying out some of mine here. *They might change when I get more
experience, and they are in the end a balancing act, as always.
-- Sailing area. *The boat will be used exclusively to cruise the west
coast of Florida, from the panhandle to the Keys.
-- Purpose. *Slow cruising and fishing. *Hook swinging in shallow,
sheltered areas, exploring islands. *Shallow draft (+-18") is
essential for this, and I won't bend here. *I don't dinghy. *Had
enough dinghying/whaleboating when I was in the navy.
On the fishing side it looks like the Mac cockpit is small, and
freeboard all around is high, so it's sure not the best fishing
platform, but I could fish off a jetski, so it's not a deal killer.
Cruising might be a month out from home port, and I'll cover that
under other categories. *Might get some subjects confused in a
category, but I'll do my best to keep organized. *
-- Economy. *My purchase/equip budget is @30k. *But that's if ongoing
costs aren't going to eat me up.
The Mac is trailerable, so when not in use it can be stored at
relatively low cost.
Despite its detractors, the Mac can move under sail from one place to
another. *It might be tender, it might not point well, etc, etc. *No
fuel used under sail.
Under power at less than hull speed, I believe the boat is a fuel
miser compared to similar sized power boats and heavier
but similar sized sailboats. *When wind on the freeboard affects
that economy, there's probably wind to sail instead.
On the economy related new/used issue, I'll make my points under
the construction topic.
--Livability. *I just don't have the experience here, from what I've
read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. *Since I've tented for
weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. *I'm not going to be
living on the boat. *Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we
are not tall, and not fat.
--Construction. *I've seen many "better" sailboats recommended by the
"real" sailors to those considering the Mac 26M. *This in order to get
a "real" used sailboat for the price of a new Mac.
When I started looking at some of the recommendations I found most
are boats 20-40 years old. *There might be a problem even getting
insurance on these.
Besides, who wants a decrepit (insert pet sailboat here),
mildew-stinking, stringer rotting, engine-dying, sail-rotting,
barnicle-embedded, crap-in-the-bilge old ill-maintained boat when you
can get a new Mac? *Some of these sailors bragging about how well
their cachet-name sailboat is maintained probably don't do anything
but shine brightwork, and leave Brasso swirls when doing that.
Besides that, some of these boats are floating supported by 1/8" of
glass over 1/4" of chopper-gun crud over a layer of poorly wetted
cloth.
From what I've read the production process used in building the Mac
has more QC than most boat builders use. *I still don't know enough
about that and other construction details to buy one, but I can find
out, even if I have to visit the plant. *No teak, plenty of minor
fit/finish complaints, light hardware, etc.
A solid boat suitable for my purposes, or so it seems.
Anyway, even an experienced surveyor can't always find the real
quality of a boat. *Somebody recommended the Parker-Dawson 26
over the Mac and when I looked for info I found owners discovering
deck cleats had not even large washers as backing. *One came adrift
because of this and he lost the boat on the rocks.http://www.parkerdawson..com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=288
Now I'm not knocking this boat, just saying even a new boat must be
gone over with a fine toothed comb, and an old boat may have well
concealed problems that won't be found without taking it apart
If they weren't questionable due to age, I'd much prefer a Dawson over
a Mac. *Of course they were 40k new in 1983, and cross oceans.
Some people are willing to buy an old boat and spend a lot of time
bringing it up to snuff. *Not only do I not have the time or
inclination, I get irritable when pulling off half-assed or unsuitable
mods.
So besides the issue of how a boat has been maintained and whether
initial construction is going to bite you, there is the "clean slate"
factor in making modifications. *This is possible even with a used
recent Mac 26, because they aren't normally used as liveaboards
and probably not much as overnighters. *
From perusing the Mac site I see some have added air, gensets,
dodgers, extra fresh water, etc. *The cabin is an open design from
the factory with minimal cabinetry.
When first looking at sailers, I tended toward a small diesel for
economy when motoring. *But now I think the lost interior space and
maintenance/cost issues of the diesel in a 26' boat make me lean in
favor of a small 4-stroke on the transom.
Just as most sailboaters recommend against the Mac 26M, the owners
of the Mac 26M generally recommend max HP OB. *I'm not buying that
either, since I won't be pulling tubes or skis as many of them do, or
be in a hurry as many of them are.
I'll be looking for my balance between sailing and powering in terms
of OB weight. *Depending on tradeoffs, I'm not even sure I would get
the boat on plane, which is one of its hull-type selling points. * *
I had originally thought along the lines of a 24' Carolina Skiff for
mostly short fishing trips, maybe some hook swinging under a popup
which some CS owners do. *The CS is another economical, shallow draft
and highly modifiable boat.
But on a price/versatily basis the Mac has the CS beat - for me.
Anyway, I'm still learning and all ears for any comments. *But please
don't make my ears turn red. *OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that
might be impossible. *

--Vic

.

When you first began outlining your parameters, including the $30k
budget, it sounded to me like the MacGregor 26 made a lot of sense as
an option.

Nothing has dissuaded me from that opinion. Just about everybody will
agree that it doesn't sail "as well" as more conventional sailboats,
but it sails well enough to enjoy the experience of sailing. Most of
those sailors who feel that nobody should be seen in a boat that isn't
the finest possible technical achievement ever launched under sail
should stop criticizing your interest in the MacGregor and immediately
go scuttle whatever also-highly-compromised boat it is that they
currently own.

With a single outboard, you can realize some pretty impressive speeds
when in the "powerboat mode".

As far as interior accommodation goes- that small cockpit that
restricts your fishing room translates into about 3 times the interior
cabin room of most 26-foot powerboats.

Are there better boats out there than a MacGregor 26? Heck and
absolutely yes. But not new or nearly new for $30k, and not that will
meet most of your other qualifications in the process.

As you can see, there are certain brands of boats (usually among the
more moderately priced) where ownership comes with a steady barrage of
nasty comments from nasty people who can't wait to tell you what a
dunce you were for not buying whatever brand they happen to own. I
have to wonder how many people wind up buying a beat up old hulk with
an "acceptable" trade name on it just to avoid dealing with such
jerks?

If you have an interest in MacGregor, research the heck out of it. I'd
hang out on the MacGregor owner's group site and ask a few questions,
etc, if I were you. See if you can find somebody who is using one in
the same sort of conditions or the same general vicinity where you
plan to boat. There are those who will caution you that current owners
are a poor resource because they tend to sing the praises of their own
boat----- but what would be better? Folks who had never owned one and
were merely inventing or passing along dock gossip?

By all means, pay no attention at all to folks who feel compelled to
call names or make disparaging personal remarks when belittling your
interest in this or any other boat. If they had anything intelligent
or useful to say about the subject they would do so, rather than
publicly demonstrate their immaturity and lack of self control.

The local MacGregor dealer is all but sold out until the end of the
year. The MacGregor owners in the Pacific NW have an annual rendezous
that is extremely well attended, and the boats are very popular,
within their niche, in this corner of the country.

I still think you'd be no worse off with a new Mac 26, (given the rest
of your requirements) than you would be with a 1979 version of a
"real" sailboat (with "real" headaches) for maybe the same kind of
money.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:42:13 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:41:23 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:


I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon.
We never used first names, so I have no idea on that.
Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book.

--Vic


I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand,
originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever
perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it.

I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in
the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand
writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism.

Um..not really.

Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel.

Depends on your viewpoint/philosophy.
I studied Dostoevsky as a lit student and nihilism *was* a central
feature of C and P. Much analysis of the novel was devoted to
nihilism, its manifestations and its cures.


Maybe the philosophy department thought otherwise.
Another thing taught by the lit department was practical analysis.
There we learned to never say "Um, not really" in matters of
literature and philosophy.
As for Rand, my mention of nihilism is drawn from my own imputations
on reading criticism, not text. As Harry said, some find her
unreadable. That includes me.
I'll brook no further quarrel on this subject, as it has now passed my
weekly allotment of non-boating related subject matter.
Besides, I ain't in school no mo'

10-4

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:42:13 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:41:23 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon.
We never used first names, so I have no idea on that.
Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book.

--Vic

I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand,
originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever
perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it.
I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in
the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand
writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism.
Um..not really.

Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel.
Depends on your viewpoint/philosophy.
I studied Dostoevsky as a lit student and nihilism *was* a central
feature of C and P. Much analysis of the novel was devoted to
nihilism, its manifestations and its cures.


Maybe the philosophy department thought otherwise.
Another thing taught by the lit department was practical analysis.
There we learned to never say "Um, not really" in matters of
literature and philosophy.
As for Rand, my mention of nihilism is drawn from my own imputations
on reading criticism, not text. As Harry said, some find her
unreadable. That includes me.
I'll brook no further quarrel on this subject, as it has now passed my
weekly allotment of non-boating related subject matter.
Besides, I ain't in school no mo'

10-4


Actually, I didn't find Rand "unreadable." I mean, I read three of her
novels when I was in the 8th grade. But even then I thought her prose
was turgid, and her "philosophy" simple-minded. That was when I was 14
years old or so. Now, I'd consider reading her works only as an
alternative to water-boarding.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:01:26 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


Actually, I didn't find Rand "unreadable." I mean, I read three of her
novels when I was in the 8th grade.

Where did you go to Elementary School? Come on - 8th grade?

But even then I thought her prose
was turgid, and her "philosophy" simple-minded. That was when I was 14
years old or so. Now, I'd consider reading her works only as an
alternative to water-boarding.

On that we can agree. :)

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:08:43 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:50:16 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message


It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26? A
Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you a
WAVE in the Navy?

Wilbur Hubbard

See ya! plunk

Good idea. Sorry to bring this on, but it's par for the course when
the Mac 26 is "discussed." I posted to the cruising group too, hoping
for some useful input, and already got some.
"Wilbur" is the Rod Speed of the boating groups, but like Speed, often
has useful/insightful posts when he's not making you gag.
Since "Wilbur" is a real sailor and a more entertaining writer than
Speed, he's worthwhile when he's not baby talking or insulting people
to no purpose.

Rod Speed sounds like a good name for a porn star.

On the other hand, Wilbur Hubbard sounds like the victim in a noir
crime novel. :)

Hubbard Speed would be a great name for a band. :)

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:01:26 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


Actually, I didn't find Rand "unreadable." I mean, I read three of her
novels when I was in the 8th grade.

Where did you go to Elementary School? Come on - 8th grade?

But even then I thought her prose
was turgid, and her "philosophy" simple-minded. That was when I was 14
years old or so. Now, I'd consider reading her works only as an
alternative to water-boarding.

On that we can agree. :)



Susan S. Sheridan Junior High School, Westville, Connecticut.
Ms. Gough was my 8th Grade English teacher.

In those days, but no longer, many of the New Haven schools were at the
top of the heap, academically. Kids were divided into "General,"
"Academic," and Accelerated Academic" groups, and if you were in the
latter, you had to produce. In Ms. Gough's class, we were required to
write one 25-page book report a month, and it had to be on a "serious"
book. I did three of Rand's novels in a row, and then Ms. Gough
suggested I move on. So I did, to Theodore Dreiser. :}

You'll be pleased to know that in those days, my math skills were
mediocre, but I did very well in English, science, and history.

In the seventh grade, for Science Project, I built a working cloud
chamber. I still remember EXACTLY how I did it, and I can still recall
all the necessary pieces and parts. I don't know if you can still buy a
Model A spark coil, but it was a necessary piece for the cloud chamber.
And you probably can't scrape radium off the face of an alarm clock
anymore, either.

Life was a lot different in those days. After school, we'd hang out at
the Catholic school down the street because the nuns ran a supervised
playground and ran informal hoops tournaments, and after an hour of
that, we'd go to the library and do our homework. I never got home
before 6:30 pm. Nowadays, of course, kids out that late would be
snatched up by perverts.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:41:23 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:


I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon.
We never used first names, so I have no idea on that.
Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book.

--Vic


I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand,
originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever
perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it.

I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in
the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand
writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism.

Um..not really.

Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel.

Depends on your viewpoint/philosophy.
I studied Dostoevsky as a lit student and nihilism *was* a central
feature of C and P. Much analysis of the novel was devoted to
nihilism, its manifestations and its cures.
Maybe the philosophy department thought otherwise.
Another thing taught by the lit department was practical analysis.
There we learned to never say "Um, not really" in matters of
literature and philosophy.
As for Rand, my mention of nihilism is drawn from my own imputations
on reading criticism, not text. As Harry said, some find her
unreadable. That includes me.
I'll brook no further quarrel on this subject, as it has now passed my
weekly allotment of non-boating related subject matter.
Besides, I ain't in school no mo'

--Vic

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:08:43 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:50:16 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message


It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26?
A
Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you
a
WAVE in the Navy?

Wilbur Hubbard

See ya! plunk

Good idea. Sorry to bring this on, but it's par for the course when
the Mac 26 is "discussed." I posted to the cruising group too, hoping
for some useful input, and already got some.
"Wilbur" is the Rod Speed of the boating groups, but like Speed, often
has useful/insightful posts when he's not making you gag.
Since "Wilbur" is a real sailor and a more entertaining writer than
Speed, he's worthwhile when he's not baby talking or insulting people
to no purpose.

Rod Speed sounds like a good name for a porn star.

On the other hand, Wilbur Hubbard sounds like the victim in a noir
crime novel. :)

Hubbard Speed would be a great name for a band. :)


There is a Hubbard Speed in a way. Vic Hubbard Speed and Marine. Great
speed shop.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:


I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon.
We never used first names, so I have no idea on that.
Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book.

--Vic


I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand,
originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever
perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it.

I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in
the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand
writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism.
Dostoevsky knew what he was doing, however, in C and P.
There's a guy posting in the ASA group using the Branden moniker.
I don't bother with him either.

--Vic

I enjoyed 'The Fountainhead', but couldn't get in to 'Atlas Shrugged'.
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H