On Sunday, I heard a spiel from a major paddle maker's rep to the effect that
offsetting the paddle blades 45 degrees makes for the least wrist rotation:
namely none.

If I understood it correctly, the rationale was that if one's body is twisting
properly with each stroke, the blades just come down into the water at the
proper angle without having to rotate the control hand back and forth.

I'm coming from flat paddles because of wrist tendonitis years back. Was
paddling some offset other than 45, switched to flat, and my wrist troubles
seemed to go away coincident with that - understanding, of course, that
correlation does not equal causation....

Sunday, I was shopping for a wave ski paddle and 45 degrees seemed tb the only
game in town.... so I tentatively bought into the 45-degree rationale.

Tried doing paddling motions seated in a chair with the 45-degree paddle and the
rationale *seemed* to hold up... but then I tried it with a zero-offset paddle
and I couldn't perceive any wrist movement either. I guess a few hundred miles
of paddling will tell the true story but meanwhile....

Anybody care to dispute the 45-degree rationale?

Support it?
--
PeteCresswell

On Mar 27, 3:56 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
On Sunday, I heard a spiel from a major paddle maker's rep to the effect that
offsetting the paddle blades 45 degrees makes for the least wrist rotation:
namely none.

If I understood it correctly, the rationale was that if one's body is twisting
properly with each stroke, the blades just come down into the water at the
proper angle without having to rotate the control hand back and forth.
[deletia]
Anybody care to dispute the 45-degree rationale?

I support it, and I'll tell you why. My first WW paddle had an 80
degree offset (old school) which I learned to paddle with. After about
2 years I decided to treat myself to a Werner all-graphite paddle
which I bought at the NOC's Guest Appreciation Festival. I had no idea
what feather this Werner paddle had, only that it was all-graphite
(light!) and about a 202cm length (which I was used to).

I ran the Nantahala and Ocoee rivers with it and I was blown away!
This was the most fantastic paddle I'd ever used! It felt incredibly
good to use. It was light, so light in fact I believed it to be
fragile (which it was not, as several years of hard use bore out.) It
felt like a "natural" fit to me. After I'd been paddling with it and
loving it I discovered it was a 45 degree offset. Once I realized this
I attributed the 45 degree offset as one of the reasons it felt so
"natural" and good to me. I analyzed my paddle stroke and realized the
45 offset put the next paddle blade in the water at almost the perfect
angle without any significant wrist rotation on my part to make it
happen.

I've been a 45 degree paddler ever since! :-)

John Kuthe...

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
On Sunday, I heard a spiel from a major paddle maker's rep to the effect that
offsetting the paddle blades 45 degrees makes for the least wrist rotation:
namely none.

If I understood it correctly, the rationale was that if one's body is twisting
properly with each stroke, the blades just come down into the water at the
proper angle without having to rotate the control hand back and forth.


Define "twisting properly". Since different paddling techniques require
different paddle angles, torso rotation etc, then there cannot be _one_
"proper" way of handling the paddle.

In the real world, where I live, paddle angles can vary from ~30 - 60
degrees for minimal wrist action depending on the technique you use.
With my Lendal, I tend to use a 30 degree angle most of the time
(estimated, not measured - I have a continuously variable Lendal).
However, if I'm going to use a high angle, high power stroke for a
while, I will increase the feather angle.

With a Greenland-style paddle, there is no feather angle and you can
adjust any differences with your fingers, not your wrist.

The 45 degree paddle will be good for some paddlers, some of the time.
Some who only ever use one technique might think it's perfect.

That paddle maker's rep seems to have a narrow view of paddling - why am
I thinking it's Werner?

Mike

On Mar 28, 6:22 am, Michael Daly wrote:
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
On Sunday, I heard a spiel from a major paddle maker's rep to the effect that
offsetting the paddle blades 45 degrees makes for the least wrist rotation:
namely none.

If I understood it correctly, the rationale was that if one's body is twisting
properly with each stroke, the blades just come down into the water at the
proper angle without having to rotate the control hand back and forth.

Define "twisting properly". Since different paddling techniques require
different paddle angles, torso rotation etc, then there cannot be _one_
"proper" way of handling the paddle.

In the real world, where I live, paddle angles can vary from ~30 - 60
degrees for minimal wrist action depending on the technique you use.
With my Lendal, I tend to use a 30 degree angle most of the time
(estimated, not measured - I have a continuously variable Lendal).
However, if I'm going to use a high angle, high power stroke for a
while, I will increase the feather angle.

With a Greenland-style paddle, there is no feather angle and you can
adjust any differences with your fingers, not your wrist.

The 45 degree paddle will be good for some paddlers, some of the time.
Some who only ever use one technique might think it's perfect.

That paddle maker's rep seems to have a narrow view of paddling - why am
I thinking it's Werner?

Mike

Seems to me that the rep is focusing primarily on paddling straight
ahead, also. Turning strokes will have you twisting your grip all over
the place.

BTW, do they make 'left-hand' and 'right-hand' 45-degree paddles?

--riverman

(PeteCresswell) wrote:

Anybody care to dispute the 45-degree rationale?

Support it?

I'll do both.

First, the support, sort of. While the optimum angle may be debatable
and may well vary from one paddler to the next, in principle, IF you use
a control hand on the paddle - which is mandatory with feathered paddles
- normal torso rotation will also rotate the paddle. However, many
people use much higher or lower feather angles than 45 degrees and
achieve this result, so the rep is out to lunch in that regard.

Now for the dispute. With an unfeathered paddle, there is NO control
hand (or two, depending on how you prefer to look at it) and no twisting
of the wrists at all. The rep's assertion simply doesn't apply. There is
no more "natural" paddle, nor one with less wrist twisting, than an
unfeathered paddle. Your own experience bears this out.

The only people I ever see claiming otherwise are those who have been
paddling feathered and are trying to paddle unfeathered while using a
single control hand. That doesn't work well, but the problem is in their
technique, not the paddle.

I took the 191cm SideKick out for the first time today.

45 works for me. After the obligatory few air braces (coming from zero
offset), I settled right in.

Got properly drilled once going over the falls upside down. A foot less water
and it would have been ugly. *Really* gotta train myself to stay away from
those shallow tube breaks. That Jersey quartz sand is like concrete when you
hit it - unlike coral sand, which just sort of goes "pooosh" and lets you sink
in as long as there aren't any coral heads or lava boulders hiding underneath.

I found the SideKick tb a *huge* improvement over the Camano 2-piece: a quantum
leap stiffer, the big blades grab a lot better in whitewater, and my hands are
down within a couple inches of the blade for that low gear going out.

I am *sooooo* glad I didn't let the rep talk me into a longer paddle. 191
seems about right. If anything, I'd like to try a 185 for a couple hours
sometime.

Only regret was not spending another fifty bucks for the foam-sandwich blade
model. Reason: the foam blades - with their 1/4" round edges were much, much
more hand-friendly. I imagine they'd also be marginally better as outriggers
when sitting in the chop.... but the suspected hand-friendliness would be the
main factor.
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) wrote:

Only regret was not spending another fifty bucks for the foam-sandwich blade
model. Reason: the foam blades - with their 1/4" round edges were much, much
more hand-friendly. I imagine they'd also be marginally better as outriggers
when sitting in the chop.... but the suspected hand-friendliness would be the
main factor.

Pete, you made me curious: why is hand-friendliness so important to you?

My paddle blades are made of glass fibre, and they tend to wear down
over time, creating edges that are pretty rough, and sometimes even
sharp. I never get near them with my hands though.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

On Mar 29, 2:27 am, Wilko wrote:
(PeteCresswell) wrote:

Only regret was not spending another fifty bucks for the foam-sandwich blade
model. Reason: the foam blades - with their 1/4" round edges were much, much
more hand-friendly. I imagine they'd also be marginally better as outriggers
when sitting in the chop.... but the suspected hand-friendliness would be the
main factor.

Pete, you made me curious: why is hand-friendliness so important to you?

My paddle blades are made of glass fibre, and they tend to wear down
over time, creating edges that are pretty rough, and sometimes even
sharp. I never get near them with my hands though.

Or try not to! Damn, I know that pain! Graphite splinters hurt like a
MOFO and are a nuisance to remove! OUCH!

The edges of a paddle blade are for cutting into the water and nothing
else.

John Kuthe...

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
....stuff deleted

If I understood it correctly, the rationale was that if one's body is
twisting
properly with each stroke, the blades just come down into the water at the
proper angle without having to rotate the control hand back and forth.

I'm coming from flat paddles because of wrist tendonitis years back. Was
paddling some offset other than 45, switched to flat, and my wrist
troubles
seemed to go away coincident with that - understanding, of course, that
correlation does not equal causation....

....stuff deleted

I don't feather my paddle at all any more. It only took paddling in a decent
storm with beam winds to quickly understand what Dowd was saying about the
disadvantage of feathered paddles. Not only do they increase injury, winds
coming from the side gets under the paddle and can, I learned, catch enough
air to capsize the boat.

Frankly, I have no idea if 45 degrees is better than 30 or 80, nor do I
care. An unfeathered paddle eliminates any concern of using a control hand
and twisting the wrist. I don't know whether anyone has done injury
statistics on feathered/unfeathered, but I won't go back to a feathered
paddle. The only drawback was having to relearn the screw roll so that I
didn't twist the paddle on the sweep.

Rick

Rick wrote:

Frankly, I have no idea if 45 degrees is better than 30 or 80, nor do I
care. An unfeathered paddle eliminates any concern of using a control hand
and twisting the wrist. I don't know whether anyone has done injury
statistics on feathered/unfeathered, but I won't go back to a feathered
paddle. The only drawback was having to relearn the screw roll so that I
didn't twist the paddle on the sweep.

Yeah, a friend of mine does a comedy riff on this topic.
He is a class 5 kayaker who has always used unfeathered.
He makes fun of kayakers who, as a group, can't settle on a feather angle.

Personally I got tendonitis from 45 degree feathering, and went back to 60.
This is really a question of personal style and anatomy.