On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:35:07 GMT, "Rom" wrote:


"HK" wrote in message
...
Chuck Gould wrote:
Grand Banks Yachts today announced plans to release an
extraordinary new addition The two-stateroom 41EU will be the first Grand
Banks to utilize the
Zeus Propulsion System from
Cummins MerCruiser Diesel, a revolutionary new propulsion system
launched in 2006.

Wow...reposting of an entire commercial PR release. Is this that idiotic
forward facing prop system?

Transom envy?

~~ snerk ~~

Good one.

For the record, I don't have a dog in this fight - I just appreciate a
funny line. :)

On Aug 28, 7:42?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 3:25?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
Grand Banks Yachts today announced plans to release an
extraordinary new addition
The two-stateroom 41EU will be the first Grand Banks to utilize the
Zeus Propulsion System from
Cummins MerCruiser Diesel, a revolutionary new propulsion system
launched in 2006.
Wow...reposting of an entire commercial PR release. Is this that idiotic
forward facing prop system?

Relax, Harry.

This doesn't concern you- it's something that people who actually use
a boat or may be buying an inboard boat in the future might find
interesting.

No, it has nothing to do with the Volvo IPS system. (Which is far from
idiotic). Zeus drives face aft. They incorporate counter rotating
props, and each of the two pods can be vectored independently.

That's the plastic boat I want, the one with two huge chunks of metal
full of gears and complicated machinery hanging down from the bottom,
where you can't see any part of it. Now, on a steel-hulled displacement
boat built to commercial standards, and where divers and competent
maintenance is available at shipyards, and where money is no real
object, well, maybe.

It's one thing to ding the bottom or even a reef with a standard
inboard...you might get get away unscathed, or you might damage a prop
blade or, well, sure, worse things can happen. But the kinds of repair
bills "Zeus" will enable...whoooo-hoooooo.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know you're not really familiar with the architecture of anything
larger than your fishing skiff, but if you would read before you react
you would learn from the press release that the props and pods are
protected in two different ways. First, there is a skeg on each that
should prevent serious damage from a soft grounding. Second, pods
mount in prop tunnels, additionally reducing the amount of exposed
surface.

A couple of other things to know, that aren't included in the release:
Cummins *recommends* mounting the pods in tunnels or depressions so
the forward facing tips extend no deeper than the keel of the vessel-
and that will allow the keel to help protect the props. The skeg is
designed to sheer, if necessary.

Most twin engine inboards will have for more running gear exposed,
considering struts, shafts, etc, than is exposed with the Zeus pod.
When striking a swamped container, deadhead, etc at high speed with a
traditonal twin engine inboard there is a risk of taking out a strut
and opening a hole of maybe a square foot or more below the waterline.
(Mayday!) The Zeus pod, like Volvo's IPS, is designed to sheer cleanly
in the event of an extremely serious impact. You will lose your
$20,000 drive but maybe save your $2,000,000 boat.

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 7:42?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 3:25?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
Grand Banks Yachts today announced plans to release an
extraordinary new addition
The two-stateroom 41EU will be the first Grand Banks to utilize the
Zeus Propulsion System from
Cummins MerCruiser Diesel, a revolutionary new propulsion system
launched in 2006.
Wow...reposting of an entire commercial PR release. Is this that idiotic
forward facing prop system?
Relax, Harry.
This doesn't concern you- it's something that people who actually use
a boat or may be buying an inboard boat in the future might find
interesting.
No, it has nothing to do with the Volvo IPS system. (Which is far from
idiotic). Zeus drives face aft. They incorporate counter rotating
props, and each of the two pods can be vectored independently.
That's the plastic boat I want, the one with two huge chunks of metal
full of gears and complicated machinery hanging down from the bottom,
where you can't see any part of it. Now, on a steel-hulled displacement
boat built to commercial standards, and where divers and competent
maintenance is available at shipyards, and where money is no real
object, well, maybe.

It's one thing to ding the bottom or even a reef with a standard
inboard...you might get get away unscathed, or you might damage a prop
blade or, well, sure, worse things can happen. But the kinds of repair
bills "Zeus" will enable...whoooo-hoooooo.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know you're not really familiar with the architecture of anything
larger than your fishing skiff, but if you would read before you react
you would learn from the press release that the props and pods are
protected in two different ways. First, there is a skeg on each that
should prevent serious damage from a soft grounding. Second, pods
mount in prop tunnels, additionally reducing the amount of exposed
surface.


Yeah, Chuck, I know. I looked at a number of renderings and schematics
of "Zeus." Your problem here is that you actually believe these news
releases.

On Aug 28, 8:35?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 7:42?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 3:25?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
Grand Banks Yachts today announced plans to release an
extraordinary new addition
The two-stateroom 41EU will be the first Grand Banks to utilize the
Zeus Propulsion System from
Cummins MerCruiser Diesel, a revolutionary new propulsion system
launched in 2006.
Wow...reposting of an entire commercial PR release. Is this that idiotic
forward facing prop system?
Relax, Harry.
This doesn't concern you- it's something that people who actually use
a boat or may be buying an inboard boat in the future might find
interesting.
No, it has nothing to do with the Volvo IPS system. (Which is far from
idiotic). Zeus drives face aft. They incorporate counter rotating
props, and each of the two pods can be vectored independently.
That's the plastic boat I want, the one with two huge chunks of metal
full of gears and complicated machinery hanging down from the bottom,
where you can't see any part of it. Now, on a steel-hulled displacement
boat built to commercial standards, and where divers and competent
maintenance is available at shipyards, and where money is no real
object, well, maybe.

It's one thing to ding the bottom or even a reef with a standard
inboard...you might get get away unscathed, or you might damage a prop
blade or, well, sure, worse things can happen. But the kinds of repair
bills "Zeus" will enable...whoooo-hoooooo.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know you're not really familiar with the architecture of anything
larger than your fishing skiff, but if you would read before you react
you would learn from the press release that the props and pods are
protected in two different ways. First, there is a skeg on each that
should prevent serious damage from a soft grounding. Second, pods
mount in prop tunnels, additionally reducing the amount of exposed
surface.

Yeah, Chuck, I know. I looked at a number of renderings and schematics
of "Zeus." Your problem here is that you actually believe these news
releases.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I do believe:

1. GB will use the Cummins Zeus drive on the 2008 41 Europa
2. Zeus drives are a rear-facing duo-prop pod system designed to be
mounted in a prop tunnel.
3. The engineers at Cummins considered the risk of grounding and
impact when designing the system.

Which of those ideas is untrue?

Cummins could save a lot of dough if they only knew.......they could
put you on staff for 50-times what you now make sitting around posting
to a couple of dozen newsgroups 24/7, (still wouldn't cost them a
dime) fire their mechanical engineers, and you'd be there to tell them
the "truth" about their crappy systems. :-)

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 8:35?am, HK wrote:

Yeah, Chuck, I know. I looked at a number of renderings and schematics
of "Zeus." Your problem here is that you actually believe these news
releases.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I do believe:

1. GB will use the Cummins Zeus drive on the 2008 41 Europa
2. Zeus drives are a rear-facing duo-prop pod system designed to be
mounted in a prop tunnel.
3. The engineers at Cummins considered the risk of grounding and
impact when designing the system.

Which of those ideas is untrue?

Cummins could save a lot of dough if they only knew.......they could
put you on staff for 50-times what you now make sitting around posting
to a couple of dozen newsgroups 24/7, (still wouldn't cost them a
dime) fire their mechanical engineers, and you'd be there to tell them
the "truth" about their crappy systems. :-)



Yes, Chuck, I am sure the engineers "considered" the risk of grounding
and impact. They considered it and decided that their customers would be
the guinea pigs. After some of these units are sold, we may actually
read about a few "incidents" that result from these lower units in
"hard" groundings.

Hey, you're the same guy who touted the wonderful technological advances
at the Bayliner factory. Maybe you need a new nick here...how about
"Chopper Gun Chuck"?

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:35:41 -0400, HK wrote:

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 7:42?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 3:25?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
Grand Banks Yachts today announced plans to release an
extraordinary new addition
The two-stateroom 41EU will be the first Grand Banks to utilize the
Zeus Propulsion System from
Cummins MerCruiser Diesel, a revolutionary new propulsion system
launched in 2006.
Wow...reposting of an entire commercial PR release. Is this that idiotic
forward facing prop system?
Relax, Harry.
This doesn't concern you- it's something that people who actually use
a boat or may be buying an inboard boat in the future might find
interesting.
No, it has nothing to do with the Volvo IPS system. (Which is far from
idiotic). Zeus drives face aft. They incorporate counter rotating
props, and each of the two pods can be vectored independently.
That's the plastic boat I want, the one with two huge chunks of metal
full of gears and complicated machinery hanging down from the bottom,
where you can't see any part of it. Now, on a steel-hulled displacement
boat built to commercial standards, and where divers and competent
maintenance is available at shipyards, and where money is no real
object, well, maybe.

It's one thing to ding the bottom or even a reef with a standard
inboard...you might get get away unscathed, or you might damage a prop
blade or, well, sure, worse things can happen. But the kinds of repair
bills "Zeus" will enable...whoooo-hoooooo.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know you're not really familiar with the architecture of anything
larger than your fishing skiff, but if you would read before you react
you would learn from the press release that the props and pods are
protected in two different ways. First, there is a skeg on each that
should prevent serious damage from a soft grounding. Second, pods
mount in prop tunnels, additionally reducing the amount of exposed
surface.


Yeah, Chuck, I know. I looked at a number of renderings and schematics
of "Zeus." Your problem here is that you actually believe these news
releases.

Let's see...believe a news release or believe Harry. Hard choice....
especially given Harry's tremendous experience.
--
John H

On Aug 28, 9:02?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 8:35?am, HK wrote:
Yeah, Chuck, I know. I looked at a number of renderings and schematics
of "Zeus." Your problem here is that you actually believe these news
releases.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I do believe:

1. GB will use the Cummins Zeus drive on the 2008 41 Europa
2. Zeus drives are a rear-facing duo-prop pod system designed to be
mounted in a prop tunnel.
3. The engineers at Cummins considered the risk of grounding and
impact when designing the system.

Which of those ideas is untrue?

Cummins could save a lot of dough if they only knew.......they could
put you on staff for 50-times what you now make sitting around posting
to a couple of dozen newsgroups 24/7, (still wouldn't cost them a
dime) fire their mechanical engineers, and you'd be there to tell them
the "truth" about their crappy systems. :-)

Yes, Chuck, I am sure the engineers "considered" the risk of grounding
and impact. They considered it and decided that their customers would be
the guinea pigs. After some of these units are sold, we may actually
read about a few "incidents" that result from these lower units in
"hard" groundings.

Hey, you're the same guy who touted the wonderful technological advances
at the Bayliner factory. Maybe you need a new nick here...how about
"Chopper Gun Chuck"?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So none of the ideas I "believe" are untrue, and you conclude by
calling names. Typical. And really, really, sad. You were a pretty
bright guy at one time. Now you can't even paticipate in a technical
discussion with any objectivity, but simply start the personal insults
and name calling in Round 1. What happened? Go glue your rod holder to
the ice chest, Harry.

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 9:02?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Aug 28, 8:35?am, HK wrote:
Yeah, Chuck, I know. I looked at a number of renderings and schematics
of "Zeus." Your problem here is that you actually believe these news
releases.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Yes I do believe:
1. GB will use the Cummins Zeus drive on the 2008 41 Europa
2. Zeus drives are a rear-facing duo-prop pod system designed to be
mounted in a prop tunnel.
3. The engineers at Cummins considered the risk of grounding and
impact when designing the system.
Which of those ideas is untrue?
Cummins could save a lot of dough if they only knew.......they could
put you on staff for 50-times what you now make sitting around posting
to a couple of dozen newsgroups 24/7, (still wouldn't cost them a
dime) fire their mechanical engineers, and you'd be there to tell them
the "truth" about their crappy systems. :-)
Yes, Chuck, I am sure the engineers "considered" the risk of grounding
and impact. They considered it and decided that their customers would be
the guinea pigs. After some of these units are sold, we may actually
read about a few "incidents" that result from these lower units in
"hard" groundings.

Hey, you're the same guy who touted the wonderful technological advances
at the Bayliner factory. Maybe you need a new nick here...how about
"Chopper Gun Chuck"?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So none of the ideas I "believe" are untrue, and you conclude by
calling names. Typical. And really, really, sad. You were a pretty
bright guy at one time. Now you can't even paticipate in a technical
discussion with any objectivity, but simply start the personal insults
and name calling in Round 1. What happened? Go glue your rod holder to
the ice chest, Harry.


You're just sliding down that hill again, Chuck. Your goal, stated or
otherwise, is to promote anything and all things that might sell boats.
I have no ongoing business interests in the boating world. I think
hanging large appendages out of the bottom of a plastic pleasure boat is
inherently risky and certainly riskier than the typical inboard prop
shaft and rudder combo. A steel commercial vessel with watertight
compartments and bulkheads, well, that's different, eh?

"HK" wrote in message
...


You're just sliding down that hill again, Chuck. Your goal, stated or
otherwise, is to promote anything and all things that might sell boats.
I have no ongoing business interests in the boating world. I think hanging
large appendages out of the bottom of a plastic pleasure boat is
inherently risky and certainly riskier than the typical inboard prop shaft
and rudder combo. A steel commercial vessel with watertight compartments
and bulkheads, well, that's different, eh?


Harry, you seem to be taking the position that the only safe type of engine
on a small pleasure boat is an outboard (probably run like I used to as a
kid ... with the latch disengaged so if you hit bottom or something, the
engine just pivoted up).

Nothing wrong with an outboard, if fact I'd prefer it to an I/O, but both
are not practical for some boats. I've seen a SeaRay with conventional twin
screws and rudders have the entire strut on one side ripped out of the hull
when it's prop picked up and wrapped a submerged 2" hawser. I also
recently saw a mangled mess of props, bent shafts and a hole almost 2 feet
long in a boat that got out of the channel in Wood's Hole and ran up on the
rocks.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...

You're just sliding down that hill again, Chuck. Your goal, stated or
otherwise, is to promote anything and all things that might sell boats.
I have no ongoing business interests in the boating world. I think hanging
large appendages out of the bottom of a plastic pleasure boat is
inherently risky and certainly riskier than the typical inboard prop shaft
and rudder combo. A steel commercial vessel with watertight compartments
and bulkheads, well, that's different, eh?


Harry, you seem to be taking the position that the only safe type of engine
on a small pleasure boat is an outboard (probably run like I used to as a
kid ... with the latch disengaged so if you hit bottom or something, the
engine just pivoted up).

Nothing wrong with an outboard, if fact I'd prefer it to an I/O, but both
are not practical for some boats. I've seen a SeaRay with conventional twin
screws and rudders have the entire strut on one side ripped out of the hull
when it's prop picked up and wrapped a submerged 2" hawser. I also
recently saw a mangled mess of props, bent shafts and a hole almost 2 feet
long in a boat that got out of the channel in Wood's Hole and ran up on the
rocks.

Eisboch




No, that is not my position. Though on a *small* power pleasure boat
like mine, I don't believe inboards make much sense.

On straight inboard boats, I prefer the shafts and drives be at least
partially protected by a significant keel ahead of those appendages.
There are plenty of inboards with such bottom protection. But even bare
struts, shafts and props present less of an inviting target and probably
don't hang down as low as these new variations on I/O drives that come
through the bottom of the hull. Plus they are very complex, just the
sort of thing you need when "cruising" to faraway ports. Keep in mind
that commercial vessels with these sorts through the bottom propulsion
systems have access to maintenance and repair facilities not usually
available to "yachtsmen."

I've previously stated my feelings about I/O's. I think they are ok on
trailerboats that are under regular inspection by their owners when the
boats are regularly hauled out of the water. I've seen more than a
couple of I/O boats go down by the stern at marinas because their stern
gasket sprung a big leak.

If I were in the market for a 30-35 footer, diesel, I'd want to give
serious consideration to some of the newer, higher efficiency "jet"
drive boats. There's nothing much on the bottom of these boats but an
encased water inlet. Nothing hanging down there.

I mentioned that a local dealer recently sold a 36-foot Grady with three
250-hp outboards. Nice boat, but 750 outboard horsepower? Thanks, but no
thanks.

I have a brochure now on these Zeus drives. They remind me of an I/0 in
many ways, with the lower unit mounted "lower" than usual. It seems to
me that a jackshaft equipped I/O offers the same "advantages" without
all the horrific extra complexity. Of course, the largest diesel
jackshaft engine I've seen was only 380 shp.

As for the "fancy" electronic positioning Chuck was touting, it's really
not that big a deal.
As