"HK" wrote in message
. ..


I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the masonry,
electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed at turning
out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force.


Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


I've been told by a number of electricians and plumbers that the Union
training programs create false expectations in terms of both wage and
real world conditions.

Employers, students, the labor dept, and hopefully the Unions
themselves have been very disappointed with the effectiveness of the
Job Corp to provide proper training or job placement for grads.


You really are an ignorant a**hole, Reggie. In the construction
trades, the purpose of the job corps is to provide unskilled,
undisciplined kids with a few decent life skills and preliminary job
skills so they know the importance of showing up for work on time,
sober, and with an attitude conducive to work. The job corps provides
pre-apprenticeship training, and a bit of a taste of the sort of
skills they'll be learning.

Do you actually know anything about anything, or is your knowledge
base built entirely upon what you google?

Yes, I do have a very large knowledge base, thanks for asking. Why do
you find it necessary to use foul language whenever someone disagrees
with you. I pointed out that employers, students and the labor dept.
are not pleased with the results of the job corp and you go on a rabid
tirade. Are the Unions pleased with the results of the Job Corp?






I don't know, Reggie. I don't "speak" for the unions. On the national
level, several training programs with which I have familiarity have few
problems with the apprentices they get out of the job corps pre-job
programs.

The "labor department" these days is a piece of Bush-admin crap, just
like everything else the Bush Admin has touched, and therefore its
opinions are not relevant.

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


I'll give you a work restriction example. When I was helping my
dealer at a boat show, the venue electricians were Union. We needed
to run a 6' extension cord from an outlet right behind the display to
a DVD player. We ran the extension cord, secured it behind the
display with 200 MPH tape to the concrete floor and hooked it up to
the DVD player.

NO NO NO. Had to have an electrician do that. So the electrician
came along and did exactly the same thing we did only it cost the
dealer $80 for five minutes work.


Having exhibited at trade shows and conferences for many years and having to
pay through the nose to have a union electrician plug in an extension cord
at our booth, I feel your pain.

Licenced union electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.
Non-union licenced electricians are usually well trained, competent and
qualified.

What do "you" have in your wallet?

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the masonry,
electrical and plumbing trades. None of the programs is aimed at turning
out low-end residential workers who build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force.


Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch




Residential "stick" house construction makes up a tiny percentage of
union construction work nationwide. There was a time when a significant
number of new houses in the Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland markets were
union built and, to a much lesser degree, that was also true in certain
New England markets, but these days, unionized construction workers are
almost exclusively involved in commercial and multi-family units.

I know this because I regularly see the hours worked stats of several
international unions. The hours worked stats include local rates, and
there are very few "residential rates" hours in the mix. Stick-built
usually has a lower hourly rate.

Now, what is your point?

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

Our youngsters (and country) have done an incredible disservice when
they were told that one either works with one's mind (smart) or works
with one's hands (dumb). The next topic I will rant about is the fact
that Industrial Arts is no longer taught (except, perhaps in name
only) in public schools (and so far as I know in ANY private
school).... I will then drift on to the fact that, in spite of having
made it through several "benchmark grades" and passed a "State
Competency Test," 65% of incoming community college students are not
prepared for school with respect to ability in Reading, Writing, and
Math.

Ohhhhhh.... don't get me started....


Gene, it's because in an age of spiraling costs and limited budgets, the
eggheads that have lived in the secure world of acedemia since graduating
from college are influencing and controlling the curriculums.

The rest of us are busy working.

It's almost comical if it was not so serious an issue.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. "sweat shops"

Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch


I take objection to the implication contained in your generalization, "None
of the programs is aimed at turning out low-end residential workers who
build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force".

Why do you find it necessary to fire low blows to anybody or group that does
not subscribe exactly to your POV. For a liberal, you seem very closed
minded sometimes.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

I happen to know a lot about union apprenticeship programs in the
masonry, electrical and plumbing trades. "sweat shops"
Good grief Harry.

Sometimes I think you know more about deep frying turkeys.

Have you ever considered that your little slice of experience in the world
is exactly that .... a little slice?

Eisboch


I take objection to the implication contained in your generalization, "None
of the programs is aimed at turning out low-end residential workers who
build houses. That's for the unskilled
work force".

Why do you find it necessary to fire low blows to anybody or group that does
not subscribe exactly to your POV. For a liberal, you seem very closed
minded sometimes.

Eisboch




It's not a generalization. The union apprenticeship programs are not
aimed at turning out workers who build subdivision houses, Eisboch.
Virtually all of that work is done non-union, for low wages, and
increasingly by undocumented piece work workers who for the most part
are untrained and marginally skilled.

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


It's not a generalization. The union apprenticeship programs are not aimed
at turning out workers who build subdivision houses, Eisboch. Virtually
all of that work is done non-union, for low wages, and increasingly by
undocumented piece work workers who for the most part are untrained and
marginally skilled.

There you go again, with the "for the most part are untrained and marginally
skilled".

We decided to install a pool. We hired an electrical contractor to do the
wiring. Happened to be non-union, but that really didn't matter in our
decision. We went with them because of good references and reputation.

The contractor pulls a permit to do the work.
He has both licenced and guys doing OJT do the work.
The contractor checks on their work and resolves any issues.
Being interested and nosey, I also observe their work.

The contractor calls the electrical inspector to check and sign off on the
work performed at various stages of construction. The electrical inspector,
who didn't know this particular contractor, is very impressed with the
quality of work.

Fill up the pool, turn it on ..... every works in a complex and safe
electrical system.

Now, according to you, this was all done by untrained and marginally skilled
people.

Final comment ....

I worked in industry for many years. I've have the opportunity to work with
both union and non union electricians in very large companys and at Ma and
Pa shops. I could tell stories about some "Union" electricians ... the most
famous being the "qualified" electrician, me and the head of the Omega Laser
system at the University of Rochester, but but I won't.


Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
For a liberal, you seem very closed
minded sometimes.

Eisboch

Eisboch,
Is there a time when Harry is not closed minded?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
...
On Nov 23, 4:21?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


Cheapie pricing? ?$90,000 for a 26 CC with a 250 Optimax isn't exactly
"cheap". ?I can add thirty thousand to that and buy Eisboch's Grand
Banks which is one hell of a boat.


---------------------------------------------------------

Isn't that his wife's 36-footer? He's only asking $120k? Is it a
woodie?
Even if, that might be cheap.

When the "buyer's market" goes into overdrive next spring, some
enterprising guy can probably make a good living hauling trawlers from
the east coast (where they are underappreciated) up to the NW. He
could backhaul sportfishers, for the same reason.

---------------------------------------------------------


Two boat brokers here in New England have told me of thier observations of
the general local market. Boat sales are slow and those that *are*
selling are usually to someone out of state.

We actually had someone from your neck of the woods considering the
Navigator. Apparently my asking price plus the estimated cost to ship
from the east coast to west coast was still less than the current market
value of a similar Navigator on the west coast.
Last we knew they were getting shipping cost details, but I doubt we'll
hear from them again.

I am still going back and forth on this but, for now, the Navigator is
officially off the market. The cost to replace it is ridiculous and
there's nothing wrong with it or it's systems.

We'll try selling the GB again next spring. BTW ... it is not wood ...
it's glass. 1982 vintage.

Eisboch

We don't see a lot of trawler style boats up here, although they'd be
perfect for our cool damp climate.