I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other "trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.

I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other "trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


I think you have a specific regular in mind when you use "trash" as the
commonly exchanged offensive moniker. My frank opinion is that you are quicker
to criticize the left leaning OT posters than the right.
That has to be OK, since I am quicker to criticize the right leaners than the
left. We should all be aware that our own bias usually shows through.

I don't disagree entirely. I see redeeming value in most of the posters, from
both (or all) sides of most issues provided they have a genuine interest in
boats and boating. There have been several instances of posters who appear
*only* to fire off anonymous flames and, when anybody calls them on this
behavior they say "I could give a rip about boating, I'm only here because you
have some GD liberals (or conservatives) that require my enlightened flaming."

You can't have a viable boating NG if a large percentage of the participants
don't own a boat, (or own a boat but never use it), and don't care aboat
boating one way or the other. What are these people going to talk about?
Certainly won't be boats or boating.

Boaters have the option to post on topic or off. Non-boaters have nothing of
substance to contribute on topic, beyond the "I'm looking for a boat and need
opinions on.........." type of thread.

Anybody who feels like a helpless victim of the NG content should consider
bringing more on-topic ideas to the forum.

One of the reasons you don't see more "pros" posting here is that the first
time anybody in the engine business or brokerage business or accessory and
supply business mentions a product or service that they perform and are
therefore
extremely familiar with, one of two or three "usual suspects" will get on that
person's case about spamming the NG. Were you around when Dave Brown posted
here? There's a good example. Very good outboard mechanic, and a gentleman.
Everytime he said "boo" he was subjected to a relentless onslaught of flaming
from an individual poster who had a low opinion of a brand of outboard motors
he sold in his shop and who had a differing opinion of the
technology associated with those engines.
The flaming went well beyond the engine technology, with Dave's personal morals
and ethics being challenged because he would dare sell such a "defective"
product.
He must have been called "spammer" a thousand times. One poster announced an
intention to drive Dave Brown from the NG, and crowed about "victory" when it
was finally accomplished.

Even Peggie Hall has had to endure some
harsh, mean spirited, criticism for offering advise on her areas of expertise.
Has always been an odd double standard: If you work as a truck driver, radio
repairman, shoe salesman, plant manager, or accountant, your opinion on some
technical aspect of boating is welcomed by all. If you actually make a living
in the field and dare to post anything based on your professional experience,
expect to be
loudly criticized for "spamming."


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.

Chuck, it really is quite telling that you fail to mention (or cast any blame
on) the
most prolific political poster (and flamer) here, namely your comrade Harry
Krause.

Is it equally telling that I didn't mention any
of the other political posters by name? Regardless of individual political
perspective?


But Harry shares your views on politics and unions, so that would not be
quite right,
now would it Chuck?

It's a conspiracy. :-)

Chuck,
Your observations are accurate, while I used the word "trash" because it was
in a post I had just read, the insults and name calling are equal on both
sides of the aisle. You would have to agree that the person who likes to
call people "trash" is one of the more rabid regulars. He may occasionally
post a boating thread, he may contribute to a boating thread every now and
then, but as he has admitted his real reason for posting here is to put down
the right wing trash who come here.

There is nothing you and I can do to stop this, there are too many people
who enjoy this blood sport. It is the reason most of the regulars read
rec.boats.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the
fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards
building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other "trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


I think you have a specific regular in mind when you use "trash" as the
commonly exchanged offensive moniker. My frank opinion is that you are
quicker
to criticize the left leaning OT posters than the right.
That has to be OK, since I am quicker to criticize the right leaners than
the
left. We should all be aware that our own bias usually shows through.

I don't disagree entirely. I see redeeming value in most of the posters,
from
both (or all) sides of most issues provided they have a genuine interest
in
boats and boating. There have been several instances of posters who appear
*only* to fire off anonymous flames and, when anybody calls them on this
behavior they say "I could give a rip about boating, I'm only here because
you
have some GD liberals (or conservatives) that require my enlightened
flaming."

You can't have a viable boating NG if a large percentage of the
participants
don't own a boat, (or own a boat but never use it), and don't care aboat
boating one way or the other. What are these people going to talk about?
Certainly won't be boats or boating.

Boaters have the option to post on topic or off. Non-boaters have nothing
of
substance to contribute on topic, beyond the "I'm looking for a boat and
need
opinions on.........." type of thread.

Anybody who feels like a helpless victim of the NG content should consider
bringing more on-topic ideas to the forum.

One of the reasons you don't see more "pros" posting here is that the
first
time anybody in the engine business or brokerage business or accessory and
supply business mentions a product or service that they perform and are
therefore
extremely familiar with, one of two or three "usual suspects" will get on
that
person's case about spamming the NG. Were you around when Dave Brown
posted
here? There's a good example. Very good outboard mechanic, and a
gentleman.
Everytime he said "boo" he was subjected to a relentless onslaught of
flaming
from an individual poster who had a low opinion of a brand of outboard
motors
he sold in his shop and who had a differing opinion of the
technology associated with those engines.
The flaming went well beyond the engine technology, with Dave's personal
morals
and ethics being challenged because he would dare sell such a "defective"
product.
He must have been called "spammer" a thousand times. One poster announced
an
intention to drive Dave Brown from the NG, and crowed about "victory" when
it
was finally accomplished.

Even Peggie Hall has had to endure some
harsh, mean spirited, criticism for offering advise on her areas of
expertise.
Has always been an odd double standard: If you work as a truck driver,
radio
repairman, shoe salesman, plant manager, or accountant, your opinion on
some
technical aspect of boating is welcomed by all. If you actually make a
living
in the field and dare to post anything based on your professional
experience,
expect to be
loudly criticized for "spamming."


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They
have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who
turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the
off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they
don't
start any.

Yes, I admitted I come here for the politics. I never said, however, that I
come here
to cause trouble and I challenge you to find where I said that....because I
did not.

To paraphrase Carly Simon: You're so vain, you probably think each post is
about you........

Challenge back to you. Where did I say that "Jim stated he is only here to
cause trouble"? Without that, your concern is completely ridiculous. I don't
recall mentioning you by name at all. What makes you think I was even referring
to you? Why would I?

You know Chuck you act like you are a saint in this whole mess. And that is
the
furthest thing from the truth. Granted, you post one or two boating related
items, but
the far majority of your posts are political. You and Harry have been
involved in the
mudslinging and OT political posts long before most of us have been
here.

I don't sling much mud, and whatever direction the NG takes is up to the
majority of participants. It isn't determined by one or two people. Personally,
if you want to talk boats, I can participate in most discussions (except I
don't know much about outboards, sailing, carbs, and a few other subjects). If
you want to talk politics, I can do that too.

For every Yin there's a Yang. Blaming the political threads solely on the left
or the right is ridiculous. Follow one through- typically goes
l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r, etc. Only difference most of the time is who goes first,
and over the long run that tends to be about 50/50.

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 05:36:36 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:26:37 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

I have kept my own political views (and they are views that I hold dear) out of
this newsgroup--but if someone were to call me "light in the loafers" for being
a Democrat, or a "fascist" for being a Republican, I'd immediately lose interest
in any sort of participation here.

I don't think I'm alone in that respect.

Joe Parsons
FWIW

You are not alone. Around our marina, politics are spoken about very
little. Dissention is left away from our boats.

I spent the long weekend at the Stockton (CA) Yacht Club with our yacht club. I
got into a "political" discussion over a beer or seven with a long-time member
who's far away from me in his politics. As our discussion intensified (and got
louder), we stopped, looked at each other and burst out laughing. We *knew* we
wouldn't change each other's mind--but we realized that we were beginning to
lose sight of the fact that we were there to enjoy the river, the boats, the
company and the beer.

I've found that face-to-face conversations have certain "safety valves" that can
keep debates/arguments from getting too unpleasant. Usenet, with its
quasi-anonymity and lack of face-to-face contact, doesn't.

Joe Parsons

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Yes, I admitted I come here for the politics. I never said, however, that I
come here
to cause trouble and I challenge you to find where I said that....because I
did not.

To paraphrase Carly Simon: You're so vain, you probably think each post is
about you........

Challenge back to you. Where did I say that "Jim stated he is only here to
cause trouble"? Without that, your concern is completely ridiculous. I don't
recall mentioning you by name at all. What makes you think I was even referring
to you? Why would I?

Yeah, you were sure to originally phrase it so you had an out. You took it. Nice move
Chuck.


You know Chuck you act like you are a saint in this whole mess. And that is
the
furthest thing from the truth. Granted, you post one or two boating related
items, but
the far majority of your posts are political. You and Harry have been
involved in the
mudslinging and OT political posts long before most of us have been
here.

I don't sling much mud, and whatever direction the NG takes is up to the
majority of participants. It isn't determined by one or two people. Personally,
if you want to talk boats, I can participate in most discussions (except I
don't know much about outboards, sailing, carbs, and a few other subjects). If
you want to talk politics, I can do that too.

For every Yin there's a Yang. Blaming the political threads solely on the left
or the right is ridiculous. Follow one through- typically goes
l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r, etc. Only difference most of the time is who goes first,
and over the long run that tends to be about 50/50.



Where did I blame the political threads solely on the left or the right?

I blamed you for throwing stones in your glass house.

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:26:37 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

...is that, for starters, we often see aspects of people we'd be far better off
*not* seeing. Sure--it's easy to characterize them as "marina bar chat;" but
that is NOT what much of this is. Is it really likely that there would be these
kinds of acrimonious, polarizing discussions, replete with namecalling and
speculation about personal habits and ancestry in an actual bar? Of course not!
But the quasi-anonymity of Usenet seems often to give license for behavior that
would be unnacceptable--and even dangerous--in real life.

It's easy to say "just use your filters and shaddup" when people complain about
these highly unpleasant (and invariably unproductive) threads; but just as
people can't avoid slowing to gape at accidents on the freeway, people will
continue to read these threads. And they'll get a certain impression of the
newsgroup, just as they would if they went into a yacht club or marina bar and
found many of the regulars involved in loud, bitter, interminable and pointless
political discussions.

For my part, when I see the namecalling and personal insults, the polarized
thinking on both sides, it tends to give me a very unfavorable picture of ALL
the participants--and if I were seeing that behavior in a yacht club or marina
bar, I'd do a fast 180 and get out of there.

I think the same thing happens on Usenet as happens in The Real
World(tm)--people go where they feel comfortable, and where they feel they can
contribute and receive value.

Most of the time, in my observation, that's not happening here--even in spite of
a number of regulars who keep trying to guide the conversation back to boating.
I often wonder how many people here actually spend time on boats.

I have kept my own political views (and they are views that I hold dear) out of
this newsgroup--but if someone were to call me "light in the loafers" for being
a Democrat, or a "fascist" for being a Republican, I'd immediately lose interest
in any sort of participation here.

I don't think I'm alone in that respect.

Joe Parsons
FWIW

Joe, I respect that opinion.
noah

On 03 Sep 2003 05:09:52 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.


I disagree.

I **look** for newbie posts, to see if I can help somebody out. If I
can, or think I can, I respond. About 1 in 1000, I start a thread,
and only the boaters respond: which is OK by me.

rec.boats.lounge

noah

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:37:24 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 05:36:36 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:26:37 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

I have kept my own political views (and they are views that I hold dear) out of
this newsgroup--but if someone were to call me "light in the loafers" for being
a Democrat, or a "fascist" for being a Republican, I'd immediately lose interest
in any sort of participation here.

I don't think I'm alone in that respect.

Joe Parsons
FWIW

You are not alone. Around our marina, politics are spoken about very
little. Dissention is left away from our boats.

I spent the long weekend at the Stockton (CA) Yacht Club with our yacht club. I
got into a "political" discussion over a beer or seven with a long-time member
who's far away from me in his politics. As our discussion intensified (and got
louder), we stopped, looked at each other and burst out laughing. We *knew* we
wouldn't change each other's mind--but we realized that we were beginning to
lose sight of the fact that we were there to enjoy the river, the boats, the
company and the beer.

I've found that face-to-face conversations have certain "safety valves" that can
keep debates/arguments from getting too unpleasant. Usenet, with its
quasi-anonymity and lack of face-to-face contact, doesn't.

Joe Parsons

Amen?

I'll buy the next round.
noah