I have kept my own political views (and they are views that I hold dear) out
of
this newsgroup--but if someone were to call me "light in the loafers" for
being
a Democrat, or a "fascist" for being a Republican, I'd immediately lose
interest
in any sort of participation here.

I don't think I'm alone in that respect.

Joe Parsons
FWIW

Joe, I respect that opinion.
noah


....Sounds exactly how I feel too! I have stepped away from this NG more than a
few times.

My interest is freshwater lake boating and try to see where I would fit in. I
have drifted off topic a few times as well (guily as charged...) and mentioned
my beliefs and political opinions once and got ripped to shreds by a few
people. Like, I'm some horrible evil creature because:

* I am a moderate, conservative, middle of the road republican.
* I am an outdoorsman, fisherman, hunter, etc...
* Heck, I go to a Presbyterian church on occasion too. Does that make me a bad
person?

Let's get back to boating and enjoying the outdoors on the water.

Butch Ammon

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.


I disagree.

I **look** for newbie posts, to see if I can help somebody out. If I
can, or think I can, I respond. About 1 in 1000, I start a thread,
and only the boaters respond: which is OK by me.

rec.boats.lounge

noah


Fine, but are you then complaining about a lack of on-topic threads? I don't
maintain that everybody has to start on-topic threads, but it does seem
inconsistent that manyh people who virtually never begin an on-topic thread
then complain about a lack of same.

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:38:46 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

Chuck,
Your observations are accurate, while I used the word "trash" because it was
in a post I had just read, the insults and name calling are equal on both
sides of the aisle. You would have to agree that the person who likes to
call people "trash" is one of the more rabid regulars. He may occasionally
post a boating thread, he may contribute to a boating thread every now and
then, but as he has admitted his real reason for posting here is to put down
the right wing trash who come here.

There is nothing you and I can do to stop this,

Yes, there is.


there are too many people
who enjoy this blood sport. It is the reason most of the regulars read
rec.boats.

rec.boats.bloodsport?
It's not that hard to set up a group.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the
fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards
building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other "trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


I think you have a specific regular in mind when you use "trash" as the
commonly exchanged offensive moniker. My frank opinion is that you are
quicker
to criticize the left leaning OT posters than the right.
That has to be OK, since I am quicker to criticize the right leaners than
the
left. We should all be aware that our own bias usually shows through.

I don't disagree entirely. I see redeeming value in most of the posters,
from
both (or all) sides of most issues provided they have a genuine interest
in
boats and boating. There have been several instances of posters who appear
*only* to fire off anonymous flames and, when anybody calls them on this
behavior they say "I could give a rip about boating, I'm only here because
you
have some GD liberals (or conservatives) that require my enlightened
flaming."

You can't have a viable boating NG if a large percentage of the
participants
don't own a boat, (or own a boat but never use it), and don't care aboat
boating one way or the other. What are these people going to talk about?
Certainly won't be boats or boating.

Boaters have the option to post on topic or off. Non-boaters have nothing
of
substance to contribute on topic, beyond the "I'm looking for a boat and
need
opinions on.........." type of thread.

Anybody who feels like a helpless victim of the NG content should consider
bringing more on-topic ideas to the forum.

One of the reasons you don't see more "pros" posting here is that the
first
time anybody in the engine business or brokerage business or accessory and
supply business mentions a product or service that they perform and are
therefore
extremely familiar with, one of two or three "usual suspects" will get on
that
person's case about spamming the NG. Were you around when Dave Brown
posted
here? There's a good example. Very good outboard mechanic, and a
gentleman.
Everytime he said "boo" he was subjected to a relentless onslaught of
flaming
from an individual poster who had a low opinion of a brand of outboard
motors
he sold in his shop and who had a differing opinion of the
technology associated with those engines.
The flaming went well beyond the engine technology, with Dave's personal
morals
and ethics being challenged because he would dare sell such a "defective"
product.
He must have been called "spammer" a thousand times. One poster announced
an
intention to drive Dave Brown from the NG, and crowed about "victory" when
it
was finally accomplished.

Even Peggie Hall has had to endure some
harsh, mean spirited, criticism for offering advise on her areas of
expertise.
Has always been an odd double standard: If you work as a truck driver,
radio
repairman, shoe salesman, plant manager, or accountant, your opinion on
some
technical aspect of boating is welcomed by all. If you actually make a
living
in the field and dare to post anything based on your professional
experience,
expect to be
loudly criticized for "spamming."


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They
have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who
turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the
off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they
don't
start any.

noah,
You can stop posting, you can stop reading, you can point out how stupid it
is to use rec.boats to discuss politics, you can use a filter, it does not
matter. The people who enjoy using rec.boats as a mud pit will continue.

If you have not figured this out yet, you eventually will. While the name
of the group is rec.boats, that was just the reason why people started
reading the NG, the regulars are here to fight, to call names, to act like
fools. Chuck is one of the more reasonable regulars, but when he is
reasonable his posts are ignored. If he makes a post that says George Bush
is an idiot, it is guaranteed to generate a 200 plus responses.

You may not like my message, but don't shoot me, I am only the messenger.
"noah" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:38:46 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

Chuck,
Your observations are accurate, while I used the word "trash" because it
was
in a post I had just read, the insults and name calling are equal on both
sides of the aisle. You would have to agree that the person who likes to
call people "trash" is one of the more rabid regulars. He may
occasionally
post a boating thread, he may contribute to a boating thread every now
and
then, but as he has admitted his real reason for posting here is to put
down
the right wing trash who come here.

There is nothing you and I can do to stop this,

Yes, there is.


there are too many people
who enjoy this blood sport. It is the reason most of the regulars read
rec.boats.

rec.boats.bloodsport?
It's not that hard to set up a group.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the
fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks
and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards
building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this
is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that
the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other
"trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


I think you have a specific regular in mind when you use "trash" as the
commonly exchanged offensive moniker. My frank opinion is that you are
quicker
to criticize the left leaning OT posters than the right.
That has to be OK, since I am quicker to criticize the right leaners
than
the
left. We should all be aware that our own bias usually shows through.

I don't disagree entirely. I see redeeming value in most of the
posters,
from
both (or all) sides of most issues provided they have a genuine
interest
in
boats and boating. There have been several instances of posters who
appear
*only* to fire off anonymous flames and, when anybody calls them on
this
behavior they say "I could give a rip about boating, I'm only here
because
you
have some GD liberals (or conservatives) that require my enlightened
flaming."

You can't have a viable boating NG if a large percentage of the
participants
don't own a boat, (or own a boat but never use it), and don't care
aboat
boating one way or the other. What are these people going to talk
about?
Certainly won't be boats or boating.

Boaters have the option to post on topic or off. Non-boaters have
nothing
of
substance to contribute on topic, beyond the "I'm looking for a boat
and
need
opinions on.........." type of thread.

Anybody who feels like a helpless victim of the NG content should
consider
bringing more on-topic ideas to the forum.

One of the reasons you don't see more "pros" posting here is that the
first
time anybody in the engine business or brokerage business or accessory
and
supply business mentions a product or service that they perform and are
therefore
extremely familiar with, one of two or three "usual suspects" will get
on
that
person's case about spamming the NG. Were you around when Dave Brown
posted
here? There's a good example. Very good outboard mechanic, and a
gentleman.
Everytime he said "boo" he was subjected to a relentless onslaught of
flaming
from an individual poster who had a low opinion of a brand of outboard
motors
he sold in his shop and who had a differing opinion of the
technology associated with those engines.
The flaming went well beyond the engine technology, with Dave's
personal
morals
and ethics being challenged because he would dare sell such a
"defective"
product.
He must have been called "spammer" a thousand times. One poster
announced
an
intention to drive Dave Brown from the NG, and crowed about "victory"
when
it
was finally accomplished.

Even Peggie Hall has had to endure some
harsh, mean spirited, criticism for offering advise on her areas of
expertise.
Has always been an odd double standard: If you work as a truck driver,
radio
repairman, shoe salesman, plant manager, or accountant, your opinion on
some
technical aspect of boating is welcomed by all. If you actually make a
living
in the field and dare to post anything based on your professional
experience,
expect to be
loudly criticized for "spamming."


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They
have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones
who
turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of
the
off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they
don't
start any.

On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 01:08:43 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

noah,
You can stop posting, you can stop reading, you can point out how stupid it
is to use rec.boats to discuss politics, you can use a filter, it does not
matter. The people who enjoy using rec.boats as a mud pit will continue.

If you have not figured this out yet, you eventually will. While the name
of the group is rec.boats, that was just the reason why people started
reading the NG, the regulars are here to fight, to call names, to act like
fools. Chuck is one of the more reasonable regulars, but when he is
reasonable his posts are ignored. If he makes a post that says George Bush
is an idiot, it is guaranteed to generate a 200 plus responses.

You may not like my message, but don't shoot me, I am only the messenger.

Shoot you? Never!! My question was simply an open one, Bill.
Is rec.boats being whored so that self-involved people have a
political soap-box and anti-social outlet? Dr. Ruth or Dr. Phil could
staighten this out between commercials. YOU ALL NEED TO GET LAID!!!

Believe it or not, ANYONES reasonable posts are not ignored, but a lot
of people interested in boating just "move on". They don't want, and
don't have to, wade through this stuff. Read the threads.

Anyone can **** in a well, but then the water doesn't taste very good
afterwards. rec.boats is a well.
noah



"noah" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:38:46 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:

Chuck,
Your observations are accurate, while I used the word "trash" because it
was
in a post I had just read, the insults and name calling are equal on both
sides of the aisle. You would have to agree that the person who likes to
call people "trash" is one of the more rabid regulars. He may
occasionally
post a boating thread, he may contribute to a boating thread every now
and
then, but as he has admitted his real reason for posting here is to put
down
the right wing trash who come here.

There is nothing you and I can do to stop this,

Yes, there is.


there are too many people
who enjoy this blood sport. It is the reason most of the regulars read
rec.boats.

rec.boats.bloodsport?
It's not that hard to set up a group.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the
fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks
and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards
building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this
is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that
the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other
"trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


I think you have a specific regular in mind when you use "trash" as the
commonly exchanged offensive moniker. My frank opinion is that you are
quicker
to criticize the left leaning OT posters than the right.
That has to be OK, since I am quicker to criticize the right leaners
than
the
left. We should all be aware that our own bias usually shows through.

I don't disagree entirely. I see redeeming value in most of the
posters,
from
both (or all) sides of most issues provided they have a genuine
interest
in
boats and boating. There have been several instances of posters who
appear
*only* to fire off anonymous flames and, when anybody calls them on
this
behavior they say "I could give a rip about boating, I'm only here
because
you
have some GD liberals (or conservatives) that require my enlightened
flaming."

You can't have a viable boating NG if a large percentage of the
participants
don't own a boat, (or own a boat but never use it), and don't care
aboat
boating one way or the other. What are these people going to talk
about?
Certainly won't be boats or boating.

Boaters have the option to post on topic or off. Non-boaters have
nothing
of
substance to contribute on topic, beyond the "I'm looking for a boat
and
need
opinions on.........." type of thread.

Anybody who feels like a helpless victim of the NG content should
consider
bringing more on-topic ideas to the forum.

One of the reasons you don't see more "pros" posting here is that the
first
time anybody in the engine business or brokerage business or accessory
and
supply business mentions a product or service that they perform and are
therefore
extremely familiar with, one of two or three "usual suspects" will get
on
that
person's case about spamming the NG. Were you around when Dave Brown
posted
here? There's a good example. Very good outboard mechanic, and a
gentleman.
Everytime he said "boo" he was subjected to a relentless onslaught of
flaming
from an individual poster who had a low opinion of a brand of outboard
motors
he sold in his shop and who had a differing opinion of the
technology associated with those engines.
The flaming went well beyond the engine technology, with Dave's
personal
morals
and ethics being challenged because he would dare sell such a
"defective"
product.
He must have been called "spammer" a thousand times. One poster
announced
an
intention to drive Dave Brown from the NG, and crowed about "victory"
when
it
was finally accomplished.

Even Peggie Hall has had to endure some
harsh, mean spirited, criticism for offering advise on her areas of
expertise.
Has always been an odd double standard: If you work as a truck driver,
radio
repairman, shoe salesman, plant manager, or accountant, your opinion on
some
technical aspect of boating is welcomed by all. If you actually make a
living
in the field and dare to post anything based on your professional
experience,
expect to be
loudly criticized for "spamming."


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They
have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones
who
turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of
the
off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they
don't
start any.

Where did I blame the political threads solely on the left or the right?

When you said that Gould, Harry, and jps
had screwed up the newsgroup? When you said that liberals brought "filth and
disrespect" to this public forum?


I blamed you for throwing stones in your glass house.

Jim, I'll proudly compare my ratio of personal attacks and insults vs. civil
discussion with your own, any day.

Why do you try to make this personal all the time? It isn't. You're nothing in
my life- a (constantly changing, often bogus) name on a screen. I should be
nothing in yours. Discussions should center on ideas, not the imagined personal
defects of people we don't know and will never meet.
IMO.

On 04 Sep 2003 00:46:54 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.


I disagree.

I **look** for newbie posts, to see if I can help somebody out. If I
can, or think I can, I respond. About 1 in 1000, I start a thread,
and only the boaters respond: which is OK by me.

rec.boats.lounge

noah


Fine, but are you then complaining about a lack of on-topic threads? I don't
maintain that everybody has to start on-topic threads, but it does seem
inconsistent that manyh people who virtually never begin an on-topic thread
then complain about a lack of same.

Chuck, I know there are whiners. My base observation is that
rec.boats is more about politics-- no: political bashing and
personal insult, than it is about boats.

The regs control the "flavor" of the group. What's it taste like?

I respect you and quite a few other regs in the group, but I am
puzzled about the willingness of some to OT it to death.

noah

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Where did I blame the political threads solely on the left or the right?

When you said that Gould, Harry, and jps
had screwed up the newsgroup? When you said that liberals brought "filth and
disrespect" to this public forum?


And I was wrong?



I blamed you for throwing stones in your glass house.

Jim, I'll proudly compare my ratio of personal attacks and insults vs. civil
discussion with your own, any day.

You have been posting here far longer than me. Anyone can see your noise to signal
ratio is quite high. At least I have been honest about it. Your approach has
been.."Who, me?"

Regardless, you were the one claiming innocence in this whole thing when it was likely
you and Harry that brought it on (the demise of the NG).


Why do you try to make this personal all the time?

I did not. You did.

Glass house = no stones thrown.

Got it?

On 04 Sep 2003 00:34:11 GMT, 123 (Butch Ammon) wrote:

I have kept my own political views (and they are views that I hold dear) out
of
this newsgroup--but if someone were to call me "light in the loafers" for
being
a Democrat, or a "fascist" for being a Republican, I'd immediately lose
interest
in any sort of participation here.

I don't think I'm alone in that respect.

Joe Parsons
FWIW

Joe, I respect that opinion.
noah


...Sounds exactly how I feel too! I have stepped away from this NG more than a
few times.

My interest is freshwater lake boating and try to see where I would fit in. I
have drifted off topic a few times as well (guily as charged...) and mentioned
my beliefs and political opinions once and got ripped to shreds by a few
people. Like, I'm some horrible evil creature because:

* I am a moderate, conservative, middle of the road republican.
* I am an outdoorsman, fisherman, hunter, etc...
* Heck, I go to a Presbyterian church on occasion too. Does that make me a bad
person?

Let's get back to boating and enjoying the outdoors on the water.

Butch Ammon

Butch- I have always enjoyed your posts, and pictures. The group may,
or may not, change, but I hope you'll continue to post here. You seem
to love boats, and so do I.

I'm thinking of buying a "mud motor" for my jon boat for duck hunting,
and nobody in my area knows anything about them. I also just bought a
'30-.06 Browning auto for deer season. Haven't hunted deer from a
boat in years. ) ...just kidding about the boat...

This group, for the years that I have been here, is good. You might
need to sort through the fertilizer.

My belief is that politics does not matter when you turn the key, and
the damned thing starts. It's all good after that.

Thanks for the reply.
noah

...Sounds exactly how I feel too! I have stepped away from this NG more
than a
few times.

My interest is freshwater lake boating and try to see where I would fit in.
I
have drifted off topic a few times as well (guily as charged...) and
mentioned
my beliefs and political opinions once and got ripped to shreds by a few
people. Like, I'm some horrible evil creature because:

* I am a moderate, conservative, middle of the road republican.
* I am an outdoorsman, fisherman, hunter, etc...
* Heck, I go to a Presbyterian church on occasion too. Does that make me a
bad
person?

Let's get back to boating and enjoying the outdoors on the water.

Butch Ammon

Butch- I have always enjoyed your posts, and pictures. The group may,
or may not, change, but I hope you'll continue to post here. You seem
to love boats, and so do I.

Exactly. I'm happy in a small 12' aluminum fishing boat with a 6hp OB, just as
I would be happy out on the Chesapeake in a 36' cruiser. Heck, I'd be happy
paddling a canoe on a quiet pond or river somewhere.

I'm thinking of buying a "mud motor" for my jon boat for duck hunting,
and nobody in my area knows anything about them. I also just bought a
'30-.06 Browning auto for deer season. Haven't hunted deer from a
boat in years. ) ...just kidding about the boat...

That's cool about the 30-06! I don't own a high power rifle, but have a nice
PSE compound bow all setup and ready for deer season. My Remington 870 12GA is
all set for early goose season, and I'm going to meet up with a bunch of guys
on a 300 acre farm hopefully this weekend or next week. Word has it the farmer
has about 1000 Canadian geese landing in his fields and trashing the place and
pooping all over. He put the word out: "Come get these darn things off my
farm!". The guys and myself all responded, "Sure thing. Say the word, and
we're there to help, er, uh, "alleviate" the overabundance of geese.

This group, for the years that I have been here, is good. You might
need to sort through the fertilizer.

My belief is that politics does not matter when you turn the key, and
the damned thing starts. It's all good after that.

Thanks for the reply.
noah

Hey, anytime... I have my AOL newsreader filters setup to filter out "OT"
stuff and a few others.

Take care.

Butch Ammon