On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).
By that controversial Florida fellow:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm
Eisboch
It's for sure this part is kind of scary:
"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.
They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."
Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!
Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.
Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.

He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.

You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.

OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how
many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on
keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so
much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer
says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where
he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85
miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no
scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed.

Oi! Oi! Oi!

Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few
days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and
run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean.
Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the
inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs.

There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give
you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian.

Just remember the Boy Scout motto.

Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd
like info to make her more seaworthy anyway.
It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in
access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then
bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from
above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out
below the scuppers.
Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments
should be isolated.
Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners,
an entirely different construction method.

wrote:
On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).
By that controversial Florida fellow:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm
Eisboch
It's for sure this part is kind of scary:
"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.
They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."
Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!
Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.
Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.
He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.
You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.
OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how
many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on
keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so
much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer
says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where
he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85
miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no
scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed.
Oi! Oi! Oi!

Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few
days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and
run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean.
Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the
inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs.

There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give
you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian.

Just remember the Boy Scout motto.

Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd
like info to make her more seaworthy anyway.
It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in
access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then
bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from
above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out
below the scuppers.
Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments
should be isolated.
Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners,
an entirely different construction method.

Some commercial boats have liners, some do not. My Parker doesn't, and
neither did my previous Parker. None of the boats that interest me have
"liners."

Is the deck you are planning to put in going to be below, at or above
the waterline? That determines where your scuppers should be.

If the below deck area is really sealed, then what you need is a drain
hole and plug to drain out the water when the boat is out of the water,
and a bilge pump under the deck that pumps out any water that gets in
while the boat is in the water.

Seems to me you could put an outlet hole in the transom, as high as you
like. If you are going to have sealed compartments under the deck you
install, you are going to need limber holes so water does not get trapped.

On Aug 19, 5:19 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).
By that controversial Florida fellow:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm
Eisboch
It's for sure this part is kind of scary:
"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.
They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."
Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!
Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.
Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.
He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.
You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.
OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how
many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on
keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so
much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer
says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where
he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85
miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no
scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed.
Oi! Oi! Oi!

Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few
days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and
run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean.
Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the
inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs.

There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give
you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian.

Just remember the Boy Scout motto.

Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd
like info to make her more seaworthy anyway.
It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in
access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then
bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from
above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out
below the scuppers.
Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments
should be isolated.
Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners,
an entirely different construction method.

Some commercial boats have liners, some do not. My Parker doesn't, and
neither did my previous Parker. None of the boats that interest me have
"liners."

Is the deck you are planning to put in going to be below, at or above
the waterline? That determines where your scuppers should be.

If the below deck area is really sealed, then what you need is a drain
hole and plug to drain out the water when the boat is out of the water,
and a bilge pump under the deck that pumps out any water that gets in
while the boat is in the water.

Seems to me you could put an outlet hole in the transom, as high as you
like. If you are going to have sealed compartments under the deck you
install, you are going to need limber holes so water does not get trapped.

Harry:

The deck would deff be above water. Most ppl say to use limber holes
but that sorta negates the isolated sealed compartment idea. So,l am
not sure....
If they are not isolated, a pump to pump the whole under deck area
would work but do I also need a pump above deck in addition to the
scuppers?

Thanks

wrote:
On Aug 19, 5:19 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).
By that controversial Florida fellow:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm
Eisboch
It's for sure this part is kind of scary:
"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.
They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."
Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!
Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.
Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.
He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.
You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.
OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how
many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on
keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so
much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer
says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where
he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85
miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no
scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed.
Oi! Oi! Oi!
Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few
days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and
run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean.
Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the
inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs.
There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give
you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian.
Just remember the Boy Scout motto.
Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd
like info to make her more seaworthy anyway.
It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in
access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then
bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from
above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out
below the scuppers.
Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments
should be isolated.
Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners,
an entirely different construction method.
Some commercial boats have liners, some do not. My Parker doesn't, and
neither did my previous Parker. None of the boats that interest me have
"liners."

Is the deck you are planning to put in going to be below, at or above
the waterline? That determines where your scuppers should be.

If the below deck area is really sealed, then what you need is a drain
hole and plug to drain out the water when the boat is out of the water,
and a bilge pump under the deck that pumps out any water that gets in
while the boat is in the water.

Seems to me you could put an outlet hole in the transom, as high as you
like. If you are going to have sealed compartments under the deck you
install, you are going to need limber holes so water does not get trapped.

Harry:

The deck would deff be above water. Most ppl say to use limber holes
but that sorta negates the isolated sealed compartment idea. So,l am
not sure....
If they are not isolated, a pump to pump the whole under deck area
would work but do I also need a pump above deck in addition to the
scuppers?

Thanks


The problem with "isolated sealed compartments" under the deck is that
they usually leak.

I've never used an above deck pump on small boats with scuppers, though
I do have a hand pump that I used to carry. I don't bother with it anymore.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Pasco and others discuss open transom boats, even with sealed decks as
being dangerous if they are disabled because they can then be filled
from astern. Even if not disabled they can be filled from astern.
So, what is the correct philosophy on cockpit drainage? Do we put our
effort into keeping the water out thus minimizing drainage area or try
to allow the water to drain very fast but make us susceptible to waves
from astern?

Many workboats have large stern scuppers with a flap type arrangement
on the outside which prevents a wave from entering.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.

Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Aug 19, 4:29 pm, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).

By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch

It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!

Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.
--
** Good Day! **

John H

On the other Tolman forum, there is a discussion of cockpit drainage
and somebody calculates that 2 5" diameter ports (two five inch
diameter) would drain a 7'X7' X12" volume in about 52 seconds and this
seems very long.
Pasco and others discuss open transom boats, even with sealed decks as
being dangerous if they are disabled because they can then be filled
from astern. Even if not disabled they can be filled from astern.
So, what is the correct philosophy on cockpit drainage? Do we put our
effort into keeping the water out thus minimizing drainage area or try
to allow the water to drain very fast but make us susceptible to waves
from astern?

I pointed you to two examples of what you should be considering. Pasco
appears to not know exactly what he's talking about. You can roll a
surf rescue boat 360. You can even roll it several times in quick
succession. It will right itself and empty pretty fast. No open
transom, either.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.

Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat.


....especially with an open transom.
--
** Good Day! **

John H

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:30:49 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.

Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat.


...especially with an open transom.

Well your transom is wide open.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:13:13 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.

Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat.

While I agree, in principle, this discussion will never *go* anywhere
because everybody has their own personal definition for "small center
console" (or small boat, for that matter) and for "offshore."

Locally, I think most people would consider anything short of about
21' "small" and "offshore" conjures up thoughts of distances in the
30+ mile range. Certainly, YMMV.....

The controlling factor is whether or not the designer took into
account the inevitability of the boat being pooped and carefully
designed out that factor as a cause of sinking.

I can agree with that, in principal, as well.