On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!
--
** Good Day! **

John H

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).


By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch

It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.



Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.

He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.

You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.

On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).

By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch

It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!

Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.

He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.

You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.

OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how
many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on
keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so
much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer
says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where
he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85
miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no
scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).



By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch


It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.
--
** Good Day! **

John H

is in re-runs.

Eisboch

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:42:17 -0400, hk wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).


By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch

It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!


Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.



Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.

He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.

You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.

The flying dutchman is long gone. Bought it in extremely poor
condition for (I think) $150 when I was a teenager. It's racing days
were obviously over, and it was probably ready for the landfill when I
got it. The FD had so many lines it looked like a spaghetti factory.
In this case, due to my limited budget, most of those lines were of
the clothesline variety.

The transom, I had to replace with a plywood facimile cut out with a
jig saw. Two large holes with about an inch or two of material
surrounding them, and a wider section down the center for the
gudgeons.

On one of the earliest sails, I thought it would be cool to try out
the trapeze. Probably should have inspected it first. We were gong
along at a pretty good clip when there was a loud TWANG, and I was in
the water. Took my buddy (who narrowly avoided a capsize when I went
over) a bit of an effort to get the boat turned around to come back
and get me.

On Aug 19, 4:29 pm, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).

By that controversial Florida fellow:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm

Eisboch

It's for sure this part is kind of scary:

"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.

They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."

Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!

Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.

Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms
are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er.
--
** Good Day! **

John H

On the other Tolman forum, there is a discussion of cockpit drainage
and somebody calculates that 2 5" diameter ports (two five inch
diameter) would drain a 7'X7' X12" volume in about 52 seconds and this
seems very long.
Pasco and others discuss open transom boats, even with sealed decks as
being dangerous if they are disabled because they can then be filled
from astern. Even if not disabled they can be filled from astern.
So, what is the correct philosophy on cockpit drainage? Do we put our
effort into keeping the water out thus minimizing drainage area or try
to allow the water to drain very fast but make us susceptible to waves
from astern?

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:16:16 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL?

Summer weather off Cabo is much more stable than FL, and you don't
have the Gulf Stream currents to contend with. There's also the
possibility that the boat near Cabo was taking large risks also.

There are almost no self righting powerboats except those designed for
lifeboat or rescue duty. The weight and cost penalty would be too
much for most people.

On the issue of scuppers, almost all boats designed for rough water
usage have self bailing cockpits, scuppers of some sort, and at least
minimal protection from downflooding through the cabin access. Take a
close look at a Grady-White or something similar.

Take the sailboat, it's much better suited.

wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message
...
OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so-
called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide
a link to a pic of such?
Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or
accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed
compartments have 6" screw in type access ports).
By that controversial Florida fellow:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm
Eisboch
It's for sure this part is kind of scary:
"Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market
with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to
happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy
unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely
watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put
absolutely watertight hatches in the decks.
They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time
the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the
nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel
and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which
they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power
while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under
these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even
large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing
transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are
the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it."
Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got!
Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact,
in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden
Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom.
Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I
know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio.

He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail
boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer
in his driveway, and he's never out on the water.

You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a
closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or
maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time.

OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how
many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on
keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so
much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer
says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where
he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85
miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than
early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no
scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed.



Oi! Oi! Oi!

Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few
days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and
run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean.
Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the
inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs.

There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give
you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian.

Just remember the Boy Scout motto.