"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
snip

Its a wonder that the lefties haven't attempted to ban the Harry
Potter books, chock full as they are with mysticism and
supernaturalism. Not to mention the rampant Christian symbolism,
the definitive expectation of the difference between Good and Evil,
and that you ought to not merely find Evil distasteful, but
something worth combating, actively combating, not just passing
resolutions against.

You're a little slow on the draw there, pyotr. Christian
conservatives have sued or petitioned school boards all over the
country to ban them from schools.

Lest you forget Ed there have been plenty of politically correct left
wingers pushing to ban books like "Of Mice and Men", "Adventures of
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn", and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" for
offensive words, ideas, and pedaling a "softer view of slavery" among
other reasons.

_Of Mice and Men_ contains vulgarity and profanity and has been excluded
from school libraries in a few places by religious conservatives for that
reason. There was a controversy about the book on those terms in Lynchburg,
VA schools, for example (Jerry Falwell's old hangout), but they decided to
leave the book in the schools.

_Tom Sawyer..._ and _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ both contain the n-word, which has,
indeed, caused them to be pulled from a few school shelves. Not from our
schools, though. I wasn't aware that religious conservatives found the word
acceptable. They do seem to have a problem with _Where's Waldo_ because it
depicts a woman's breast. g


Pfffhht. You're talking about a short-term thing that was out on the
fringes. Christian conservatives have been trying to ban books for 200
years.

Try finding those books in a middle school library then. They went from
required reading to banned.

Really? Do you have this on good authority? I know that my son was assigned
_Of Mice and Men_, but I don't remember when. It might have been his
freshman year of high school.

Those books have all been challenged in many schools, but so has damned near
everything else of any value. Someone can be found to challenge school books
of almost any type. Overall, I think you'll find that the consistent and
insistent objections have come from the right, especially from religious
conservatives, who find so much of contemporary culture objectionable. But a
challenge doesn't often result in a book being pulled.

As for the length of time they've been at;
that's really not the problem is it?

Well, if the wave of objections from the left didn't last (and I don't think
it did; it seemed to reach a high point a decade or more ago, when PC was in
full flower), while the objections from the right have been steady and
unrelenting, then, yes, I think that is part of the problem.



I also find it hypocritical that Cliff is against burning books. Him
being a big proponent of freedom and all. It's merely another legal
form of freedom of speech AFAICT. Just so long as the book you're
burning legally belongs to you.

Cliff is against someone burning his own books? Why?

During you hiatus he was in a tizzy over some folks burning Harry Potter
books. I actually read his link. Turns out they bought them, then lit
them on fire. As best as I recall, I got him to say that flag burning is
OK but not book burning. Seems like the same thing to me.

In principle, I'd agree. If someone wants to burn their own books for some
symbolic reason, they're probably fools, but that's their prerogative.


Neither the far left or the far right has much tolerance for freedom
of speech.

Ideologues are a plague upon civilization.


Maybe. But they really do test where the lines are drawn and they cause
people to think. So it's not all bad. You just can't let them run amok.

Right. They're OK to define the endpoints of an issue. That's the extent of
their usefulness.

--
Ed Huntress

[Default] I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that D
Murphy reported Elvis on 24 Sep 2008 02:28:17
GMT in misc.survivalism :
"Ed Huntress" wrote
"pyotr filipivich" wrote:
Its a wonder that the lefties haven't attempted to ban the Harry
Potter books, chock full as they are with mysticism and
supernaturalism. Not to mention the rampant Christian symbolism, the
definitive expectation of the difference between Good and Evil, and
that you ought to not merely find Evil distasteful, but something
worth combating, actively combating, not just passing resolutions
against.

You're a little slow on the draw there, pyotr. Christian conservatives
have sued or petitioned school boards all over the country to ban them
from schools.

Lest you forget Ed there have been plenty of politically correct left
wingers pushing to ban books like "Of Mice and Men", "Adventures of Tom
Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn", and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" for offensive
words, ideas, and pedaling a "softer view of slavery" among other
reasons.

I also find it hypocritical that Cliff is against burning books. Him
being a big proponent of freedom and all. It's merely another legal form
of freedom of speech AFAICT. Just so long as the book you're burning
legally belongs to you.

It's my book, I'll treat it as I wish. Some books get "most
favored" status, no dog eared corners, no writing in the margins,
never get loaned out. Others, get notes & commentary. Some just come
in, get read a few times, and then go out.
Others, are so bad, that as a service to humanity, I burn them.
I'd throw them away, but I fear that someone might pull them from the
trash, and read it.

Neither the far left or the far right has much tolerance for freedom of
speech.

It really comes down to a balance between "Freedom" and
"Equality". The more Free, the less Equal, and vice versa.

Years ago, I came across a 'different' political spectrum, which
explains things a bit better, defining "left/right" as the degree of
governmental control in this balance.. I.e. going "left" increases
government control of the individual, making more people "equal", till
at the extreme you have a hive mentality, where each individual unit
is genetically programmed to perform a task, and all are equal (for
certain definitions of "equal". The newspeak application is left as
an exercise for the reader.
Going "right" you have more individual autonomy, more "freedom",
until (again) at the extreme, is the person who is so "free" they can
no longer communicate with other persons. This is known as "insanity"
- but it is an example of extreme individual freedom.
Thus we can see that it is possible to develop a kind of political
taxonomy which recognizes that The People's Progressive Revolutionary
Vanguard and the Intentional Anarchist Coop for Peace and Freedom are
on the "same side" (wanting to run your life "for your own good" or
"for the sake of the Children") while the Reactionary Imperialists
Mandarins is really "the good guys" because they just want to have
nice uniforms for government functionaries, and really don't want to
be bothered with coming into the office, leaving you to 'muddle
through' with your own pathetic lives.

Rotate that 90 degrees and "up" become more individual autonomy
but less "equality"; "down" becomes less individual autonomy - but
more Equality.

But that dynamic between "equality" and "freedom" has been
fundamental to the political and social flux since oh, the end of the
Persian Empire.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
The cliche is that history rarely repeats herself. Usually she just
lets fly with a frying pan and yells "Why weren't you listening
the first time!?"

On 24 Sep 2008 03:20:55 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
snip

Its a wonder that the lefties haven't attempted to ban the Harry
Potter books, chock full as they are with mysticism and
supernaturalism. Not to mention the rampant Christian symbolism,
the definitive expectation of the difference between Good and Evil,
and that you ought to not merely find Evil distasteful, but
something worth combating, actively combating, not just passing
resolutions against.

You're a little slow on the draw there, pyotr. Christian
conservatives have sued or petitioned school boards all over the
country to ban them from schools.

Lest you forget Ed there have been plenty of politically correct left
wingers pushing to ban books like "Of Mice and Men", "Adventures of
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn", and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" for
offensive words, ideas, and pedaling a "softer view of slavery" among
other reasons.

Pfffhht. You're talking about a short-term thing that was out on the
fringes. Christian conservatives have been trying to ban books for 200
years.

Try finding those books in a middle school library then.

I guess you've never looked though the big words
may be above the vocabulary level of wingers in
"middle school".

They went from
required reading to banned.

When were they required reading?
And what school library would have enough copies for
all the students?

As for the length of time they've been at;
that's really not the problem is it?

They persist.



I also find it hypocritical that Cliff is against burning books. Him
being a big proponent of freedom and all. It's merely another legal
form of freedom of speech AFAICT. Just so long as the book you're
burning legally belongs to you.

Cliff is against someone burning his own books? Why?

During you hiatus he was in a tizzy over some folks burning Harry Potter
books. I actually read his link. Turns out they bought them, then lit
them on fire.

They were promoting sales of the books?

As best as I recall, I got him to say that flag burning is
OK but not book burning. Seems like the same thing to me.

You seem confused.


Neither the far left or the far right has much tolerance for freedom
of speech.

Ideologues are a plague upon civilization.


Maybe. But they really do test where the lines are drawn and they cause
people to think.

Not wingers.

So it's not all bad. You just can't let them run amok.

Like gumme, the cheese, ....
--
Cliff

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:51:23 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Years ago, I came across a 'different' political spectrum, which
explains things a bit better, defining "left/right" as the degree of
governmental control in this balance.. I.e. going "left" increases
government control of the individual, making more people "equal", till
at the extreme you have a hive mentality, where each individual unit
is genetically programmed to perform a task, and all are equal (for
certain definitions of "equal". The newspeak application is left as
an exercise for the reader.
Going "right" you have more individual autonomy, more "freedom",
until (again) at the extreme, is the person who is so "free" they can
no longer communicate with other persons. This is known as "insanity"
- but it is an example of extreme individual freedom.

Hence all the right wing dictatorships supported by wingers
while liberal democracies get overthrown or invaded.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote in
:

On 24 Sep 2008 03:20:55 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
snip

Its a wonder that the lefties haven't attempted to ban the Harry
Potter books, chock full as they are with mysticism and
supernaturalism. Not to mention the rampant Christian symbolism,
the definitive expectation of the difference between Good and
Evil,
and that you ought to not merely find Evil distasteful, but
something worth combating, actively combating, not just passing
resolutions against.

You're a little slow on the draw there, pyotr. Christian
conservatives have sued or petitioned school boards all over the
country to ban them from schools.

Lest you forget Ed there have been plenty of politically correct
left
wingers pushing to ban books like "Of Mice and Men", "Adventures of
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn", and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" for
offensive words, ideas, and pedaling a "softer view of slavery"
among
other reasons.

Pfffhht. You're talking about a short-term thing that was out on the
fringes. Christian conservatives have been trying to ban books for
200
years.

Try finding those books in a middle school library then.

I guess you've never looked though the big words
may be above the vocabulary level of wingers in
"middle school".

They went from
required reading to banned.

When were they required reading?

When I went to school.

And what school library would have enough copies for
all the students?

I don't know what kind of dump you went to, but where I went to school
the library didn't keep the books for class. They had a copy or two.
Books that were required reading were handed out by the teacher. I read
all three of those books plus a good many other throughout my years in
middle school.


As for the length of time they've been at;
that's really not the problem is it?

They persist.

It's their right.




I also find it hypocritical that Cliff is against burning books. Him
being a big proponent of freedom and all. It's merely another legal
form of freedom of speech AFAICT. Just so long as the book you're
burning legally belongs to you.

Cliff is against someone burning his own books? Why?

During you hiatus he was in a tizzy over some folks burning Harry
Potter
books. I actually read his link. Turns out they bought them, then lit
them on fire.

They were promoting sales of the books?

As best as I recall, I got him to say that flag burning is
OK but not book burning. Seems like the same thing to me.

You seem confused.


Neither the far left or the far right has much tolerance for freedom
of speech.

Ideologues are a plague upon civilization.


Maybe. But they really do test where the lines are drawn and they cause
people to think.

Not wingers.

So it's not all bad. You just can't let them run amok.

Like gumme, the cheese, ....

You're drooling.

--

Dan

CNC Videos - http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d

On 1 Oct 2008 02:04:45 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Cliff wrote in
:

On 24 Sep 2008 03:20:55 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
snip

Its a wonder that the lefties haven't attempted to ban the Harry
Potter books, chock full as they are with mysticism and
supernaturalism. Not to mention the rampant Christian symbolism,
the definitive expectation of the difference between Good and
Evil,
and that you ought to not merely find Evil distasteful, but
something worth combating, actively combating, not just passing
resolutions against.

You're a little slow on the draw there, pyotr. Christian
conservatives have sued or petitioned school boards all over the
country to ban them from schools.

Lest you forget Ed there have been plenty of politically correct
left
wingers pushing to ban books like "Of Mice and Men", "Adventures of
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn", and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" for
offensive words, ideas, and pedaling a "softer view of slavery"
among
other reasons.

Pfffhht. You're talking about a short-term thing that was out on the
fringes. Christian conservatives have been trying to ban books for
200
years.

Try finding those books in a middle school library then.

I guess you've never looked though the big words
may be above the vocabulary level of wingers in
"middle school".

They went from
required reading to banned.

When were they required reading?

When I went to school.

And now you say that they are banned?

And what school library would have enough copies for
all the students?

I don't know what kind of dump you went to,

Second best pubic school system in the State followed
by a top ranked (#3 in it's national group) college.
None of them had enough copies of any single book for all
in any class. Nor should they have.

but where I went to school
the library didn't keep the books for class. They had a copy or two.
Books that were required reading were handed out by the teacher. I read
all three of those books plus a good many other throughout my years in
middle school.

And the teacher handed out copies to all the students?

As for the length of time they've been at;
that's really not the problem is it?

They persist.

It's their right.

To ban books?


I also find it hypocritical that Cliff is against burning books. Him
being a big proponent of freedom and all. It's merely another legal
form of freedom of speech AFAICT. Just so long as the book you're
burning legally belongs to you.

Cliff is against someone burning his own books? Why?

During you hiatus he was in a tizzy over some folks burning Harry
Potter
books. I actually read his link. Turns out they bought them, then lit
them on fire.

They were promoting sales of the books?

As best as I recall, I got him to say that flag burning is
OK but not book burning. Seems like the same thing to me.

You seem confused.


Neither the far left or the far right has much tolerance for freedom
of speech.

Ideologues are a plague upon civilization.


Maybe. But they really do test where the lines are drawn and they cause
people to think.

Not wingers.

So it's not all bad. You just can't let them run amok.

Like gummer, the cheese, ....

You're drooling.

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote in
:

On 1 Oct 2008 02:04:45 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Cliff wrote in
m:

On 24 Sep 2008 03:20:55 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
snip

Its a wonder that the lefties haven't attempted to ban the Harry
Potter books, chock full as they are with mysticism and
supernaturalism. Not to mention the rampant Christian
symbolism,
the definitive expectation of the difference between Good and
Evil,
and that you ought to not merely find Evil distasteful, but
something worth combating, actively combating, not just passing
resolutions against.

You're a little slow on the draw there, pyotr. Christian
conservatives have sued or petitioned school boards all over the
country to ban them from schools.

Lest you forget Ed there have been plenty of politically correct
left
wingers pushing to ban books like "Of Mice and Men", "Adventures
of
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn", and "Uncle Tom's Cabin" for
offensive words, ideas, and pedaling a "softer view of slavery"
among
other reasons.

Pfffhht. You're talking about a short-term thing that was out on
the
fringes. Christian conservatives have been trying to ban books for
200
years.

Try finding those books in a middle school library then.

I guess you've never looked though the big words
may be above the vocabulary level of wingers in
"middle school".

They went from
required reading to banned.

When were they required reading?

When I went to school.

And now you say that they are banned?

I take it that teaching reading comprehension wasn't high on the list of
priorities at your school?


And what school library would have enough copies for
all the students?

I don't know what kind of dump you went to,

Second best pubic school system in the State followed
by a top ranked (#3 in it's national group) college.
None of them had enough copies of any single book for all
in any class. Nor should they have.

Sad really.


but where I went to school
the library didn't keep the books for class. They had a copy or two.
Books that were required reading were handed out by the teacher. I read
all three of those books plus a good many other throughout my years in
middle school.

And the teacher handed out copies to all the students?

Yes.


As for the length of time they've been at;
that's really not the problem is it?

They persist.

It's their right.

To ban books?

To speak their mind.



I also find it hypocritical that Cliff is against burning books.
Him
being a big proponent of freedom and all. It's merely another
legal
form of freedom of speech AFAICT. Just so long as the book you're
burning legally belongs to you.

Cliff is against someone burning his own books? Why?

During you hiatus he was in a tizzy over some folks burning Harry
Potter
books. I actually read his link. Turns out they bought them, then lit
them on fire.

They were promoting sales of the books?

As best as I recall, I got him to say that flag burning is
OK but not book burning. Seems like the same thing to me.

You seem confused.


Neither the far left or the far right has much tolerance for
freedom
of speech.

Ideologues are a plague upon civilization.


Maybe. But they really do test where the lines are drawn and they
cause
people to think.

Not wingers.

So it's not all bad. You just can't let them run amok.

Like gummer, the cheese, ....

You're drooling.

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm

Still 11 years old at heart I see. Maybe if they had more books...

--

Dan

CNC Videos - http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d