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Boater October 12th 08 02:17 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
McCain Camp Ignores Questions About Candidate’s Military Record
By Jeff Stein, Congressional Quarterly Staff

Evidently taking a page from John Kerry ’s quest for the presidency in
2004, John McCain ’s campaign has decided — for now, anyway — not to
respond to provocative attacks aimed squarely at his strong point: his
reputation as a military hero.

The much talked about main broadside came in the form of a 12,000-word
attack in Rolling Stone, which portrayed the hard-partying young McCain
as a reckless pilot who totaled three jets, and whose career as a pilot
was saved only by the pull of his father, commander of the U.S. Navy’s
Pacific Fleet during the Vietnam War.

The piece, which Rolling Stone says has garnered 2.5 million hits on the
magazine’s Web site since Oct. 6, has been the talk of the liberal
blogosphere, but gotten zero attention from the mainstream media.

The Internet has also been afire with other, more vicious brickbats
suggesting that a “cowboy pilot” prank by McCain might have started the
July 1967 fire that destroyed the USS Forrestal aircraft carrier.

Unlike the Rolling Stone piece, however, whose negative coverage of
McCain’s military years leans heavily on the recollections of John
Dramesi, an Air Force pilot who was a prisoner of war with McCain, the
blogs on the Forrestal incident rely almost entirely on anonymous sources.

In 2004, Kerry’s team initially decided to ignore attacks on his
military record, figuring that few people would believe questions about
his much-decorated performance as a Navy swift boat commander in Vietnam.

Like McCain, Kerry’s vaunted Vietnam service was a key element of his
run for the presidency.

According to the conventional wisdom, the swift boaters sulphurous TV
ads, which portrayed the Massachusetts senator as a resume-inflating
imposter who did not deserve his medals, inflicted a fatal blow on
Kerry’s campaign before he belatedly decided he had to respond.

The Rolling Stone piece, “Make Believe Maverick,” by Tim Dickinson,
likewise calls into question McCain’s military legend.

It portrays him running from his burning jet on the Forrestal’s deck and
virtually hiding in the carrier’s ward room while others died fighting
the ferocious fire and exploding ordnance. In all, 133 sailors died in
the tragedy.

Publicly, McCain’s campaign has ignored the story. It also declined to
respond to my requests by phone and e-mail for a comment on the story’s
accuracy.

Likewise, it has not responded to slashing blogs circulating intensely
on the Web that offer an even darker view of the Forrestal incident.

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued up in
a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine, a prank
designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of exploding kerosene.
McCain Camp Ignores Questions About Candidate’s Military Record

Normally, it’s a harmless, common stunt by “cowboy pilots.” But on this
occasion the exploding kerosene caused a six-foot long Zuni rocket under
the trailing pilot’s wing to launch across the flight deck.

“[It] ripped through the fuel tank of McCain’s aircraft,” Dickinson
writes. “Hundreds of gallons of fuel splashed onto the deck and came
ablaze. Then: Clank. Clank. Two 1,000-pound bombs dropped from under the
belly of McCain’s stubby A-4 . . . into the fire.”

McCain rolled out of his cockpit onto the deck and ran for his life,
Dickinson writes.

“Just then, one of his bombs ‘cooked off,’ blowing a crater in the deck
and incinerating the sailors who had rushed past McCain with hoses and
fire extinguishers.”

But according to historian Mary Hershberger, writing on the liberal
Truthdig.com site, McCain panicked.

“Some of those who were on the Forrestal and other persons familiar with
the ordnance told me that because the rocket did not hit McCain’s craft,
only actions by the pilot could have caused any bomb to fall from
McCain’s Skyhawk,” wrote Hershberger, who in 2005 published a biography,
”Jane Fonda’s War,” advertised as “an antidote to the ‘Hanoi Jane’ myth.”

“These sources . . . who spoke under the condition that they not be
publicly identified,” Hershberger wrote, “agree with each other that, if
any bomb fell from the McCain airplane, it was because of actions that
he took either in error or panic upon seeing the fire on the deck or in
his hasty exit from the plane. Two switches in the cockpit of a Skyhawk
need to be thrown to drop such a bomb, according to the sources.”

Truthdig lists Hershberger’s piece, posted on May 7, as its “most read”
and “most e-mailed” article.

But while Truthdig and Rolling Stone have liberals clucking, it’s yet to
be seen whether they will have any where near the impact of the swift
boat ads — which, by the way, the mainstream media also initially
ignored because of questions about their accuracy.

“I doubt it will have much of an impact.,” says New York Times media
columnist David Carr.

“There is a vertical axis of information in conservative circles that
the swift boat moved on that is not replicated by liberals,” Carr said
“The conservative talk radio shows have an ability to metastasize and
amplify negative stories, and they won’t be punching in on this one.”

Washington Post blogger Dan Froomkin, a frequent Bush critic, agreed.

“One enormous difference compared to Kerry, in my mind, is that the
[mainstream media], with the exception of the LA Times, has refused to
pick up any elements of this story, whereas it served (wittingly and
unwittingly) as a massive echo chamber for the Swift boating,” according
to Froomkin.
McCain Camp Ignores Questions About Candidate’s Military Record

But Josh Marshall, founding editor of the influential liberal blog
Talking Points Memo, said the attack on Kerry’s military record and
McCain’s are “fundamentally different in two respects. The more
important of the two is that there’s been very little questioning, as
far as I’ve seen, of McCain’s actual military and POW record.”

“Second,” he added, “there’s been no organized effort, again as far as
I’ve seen, to denigrate his record.”

Mark Hertsgaard, author of “On Bended Knee,” a best-selling critique of
the 1980s-era White House press corps, said attacks on McCain’s war
record, lacking a right-wing media accelerant, will wilt without a boost
from the major newspapers and networks.

“The obvious place to start is with the former POW, Mr. Dramesi,”
featured in the Rolling Stone piece, he added. “Why aren’t we seeing him
on TV shows already?”

Mark Crispin Miller, author of “Loser Take All: Election Fraud and the
Subversion of Democracy, 2000-2008,” among other books on the media,
called the Rolling Stone piece “devastating” and scolded the Democrats
for being “too timid” to make more of it.

“It’s sadly typical that the Republicans could mount a big campaign of
lies [against Kerry] and get away with it, while the Democrats do
nothing with the very damning truth about McCain’s war record,” added
Miller, who maintained he is “not a Democrat or Obama supporter.”

The lone establishment voice calling for the media to dig deeper into
McCain’s war record belongs to Barry Sussman, one of the famed
Washington Post editors in charge of the paper’s Watergate investigations.

“McCain has made his military experience a key reason to vote for him.,”
Sussman wrote on the Nieman Watchdog Web site, which he now edits
following his Post retirement.

“Reporters should examine his military records, including reports on air
mishaps he was involved in before he was shot down over Hanoi. And
McCain should see to it that all reports are made public,” Sussman said.

So far, though, outside of the Los Angles Times, Rolling Stone and the
web, no one appears to be heeding Sussman’s call, posted in early September.

Rolling Stone managing editor Will Dana said he found that curious.

“Tim Dickinson gets asked to be on MSNBC and CNN all the time,” Dana
said, “but the phones haven’t been ringing this week.”

Jeff Stein can be reached at .

Boater[_2_] October 12th 08 05:43 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:17:58 -0400, Boater
wrote:

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued up in
a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine, a prank
designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of exploding kerosene.


Have you seen the video? Look at it and you will see the engine was
pointed over the side, not aimed at the plane that dropped the
missile.
I suppose "swiftboating' is fair play but there is too much video and
official reporting to get much traction here.



You know what? I don't really care if McCain is "victimized" by
swiftboating. His campaign the last few weeks has been absolutely
disgusting. I lost my respect for him when he picked that bimbo as his
running mate. McCain deserves to lose the election big time.

BAR[_3_] October 12th 08 07:38 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
Boater wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:17:58 -0400, Boater
wrote:

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued up
in a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine, a
prank designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of exploding
kerosene.


Have you seen the video? Look at it and you will see the engine was
pointed over the side, not aimed at the plane that dropped the
missile.
I suppose "swiftboating' is fair play but there is too much video and
official reporting to get much traction here.



You know what? I don't really care if McCain is "victimized" by
swiftboating. His campaign the last few weeks has been absolutely
disgusting. I lost my respect for him when he picked that bimbo as his
running mate. McCain deserves to lose the election big time.


How many said no to Obama before he scraped the bottom of the barrel
with Biden? Why would Biden sign on with a candidate who he sateted
publicly was wholly unqualified to be president?

Boater[_2_] October 12th 08 08:03 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:17:58 -0400, Boater
wrote:

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued
up in a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine,
a prank designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of
exploding kerosene.

Have you seen the video? Look at it and you will see the engine was
pointed over the side, not aimed at the plane that dropped the
missile.
I suppose "swiftboating' is fair play but there is too much video and
official reporting to get much traction here.



You know what? I don't really care if McCain is "victimized" by
swiftboating. His campaign the last few weeks has been absolutely
disgusting. I lost my respect for him when he picked that bimbo as his
running mate. McCain deserves to lose the election big time.


How many said no to Obama before he scraped the bottom of the barrel
with Biden? Why would Biden sign on with a candidate who he sateted
publicly was wholly unqualified to be president?



There you go again, demonstrating your stupidity.

The Obama team seriously vetted a half dozen possibilities, and I mean
seriously. Months were spent going over resumes and background checks.
Biden was the first and only choice. Biden is qualified to step in if
Obama is killed by one your your right-wing nutcases and run the
government properly. His disagreements with Obama during the primary
season were exactly the kinds of disgreements primary candidates have
with each other.

Your boy McCain wanted Tailgunner Joe as his running mate. Lieberman was
as well-qualified as Biden to be VEEP, and no one would have seriously
questioned the quality of that choice *except* the right-wing red meat
boys who would have bolted. McCain had to pass on his first choice.

So your boy McCain chose a woman he had met once for a few minutes and
talked to on the phone a few times. Sarah Palin is not qualified to step
in as president if McCain dies suddenly.

As it turned out, Obama chose wisely. Your boy McCain chose poorly. Ms.
Palin is so empty-headed the McCain campaign cannot risk putting her out
in front of the national media for a news conference. And even worse,
just like McCain, she has ethical problems.




Vic Smith October 12th 08 09:44 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:29:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:17:58 -0400, Boater
wrote:

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued up in
a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine, a prank
designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of exploding kerosene.


Have you seen the video? Look at it and you will see the engine was
pointed over the side, not aimed at the plane that dropped the
missile.
I suppose "swiftboating' is fair play but there is too much video and
official reporting to get much traction here.


I first saw the full Forrestal flight deck video in '75 at a reserve
damage control class. It was obvious the plane hit had no part
of the missile firing from clear across the deck.
You're right about the swiftboating, though.
Once the Reps went after Kerry's service, they put a target on the
back of every vet running for office, whether the charges are true or
not, matter or not.
The Bush crowd gave all vets that legacy.
Vets' service isn't simply honored/respected - it is suspected and
questioned. Trash the vet's service for political points.
Thanks GWB.

--Vic

[email protected] October 12th 08 11:29 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:43:08 -0400, Boater wrote:


You know what? I don't really care if McCain is "victimized" by
swiftboating. His campaign the last few weeks has been absolutely
disgusting. I lost my respect for him when he picked that bimbo as his
running mate. McCain deserves to lose the election big time.


Kerry shouldn't have been "swiftboated", and neither should McCain. It's
apparent to me, that McCain has lost some of his mental faculties. I
believe this is the reason his campaign has gone negative. He is not as
in control of his campaign as he should be. I'll be happy to see him
lose this election, but I'll also be happy to see him retire with his
reputation intact. It's the least he deserves after a lifetime in
service to his country.

BAR[_3_] October 12th 08 11:40 PM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:43:08 -0400, Boater wrote:


You know what? I don't really care if McCain is "victimized" by
swiftboating. His campaign the last few weeks has been absolutely
disgusting. I lost my respect for him when he picked that bimbo as his
running mate. McCain deserves to lose the election big time.


Kerry shouldn't have been "swiftboated", and neither should McCain. It's
apparent to me, that McCain has lost some of his mental faculties. I
believe this is the reason his campaign has gone negative. He is not as
in control of his campaign as he should be. I'll be happy to see him
lose this election, but I'll also be happy to see him retire with his
reputation intact. It's the least he deserves after a lifetime in
service to his country.


Kerry got what he deserved. Especially when he said that Nixon ordered
him into Cambodia before Nixon took office. And, when Kerry threw
someone else's medals over the fence giving everyone the impression they
were his medals.

John H[_2_] October 13th 08 12:49 AM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:44:24 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:29:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:17:58 -0400, Boater
wrote:

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued up in
a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine, a prank
designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of exploding kerosene.


Have you seen the video? Look at it and you will see the engine was
pointed over the side, not aimed at the plane that dropped the
missile.
I suppose "swiftboating' is fair play but there is too much video and
official reporting to get much traction here.


I first saw the full Forrestal flight deck video in '75 at a reserve
damage control class. It was obvious the plane hit had no part
of the missile firing from clear across the deck.
You're right about the swiftboating, though.
Once the Reps went after Kerry's service, they put a target on the
back of every vet running for office, whether the charges are true or
not, matter or not.
The Bush crowd gave all vets that legacy.
Vets' service isn't simply honored/respected - it is suspected and
questioned. Trash the vet's service for political points.
Thanks GWB.

--Vic


Kerry lied his ass off. That's why he got what he deserved.
--
John H.

Boater[_2_] October 13th 08 12:53 AM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
John H wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:44:24 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:29:12 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:17:58 -0400, Boater
wrote:

According to these accounts, McCain, whose A4-E Skyhawk was queued up in
a line of jets waiting to take off, “wet started” his engine, a prank
designed to startle a trailing pilot with a flame of exploding kerosene.
Have you seen the video? Look at it and you will see the engine was
pointed over the side, not aimed at the plane that dropped the
missile.
I suppose "swiftboating' is fair play but there is too much video and
official reporting to get much traction here.

I first saw the full Forrestal flight deck video in '75 at a reserve
damage control class. It was obvious the plane hit had no part
of the missile firing from clear across the deck.
You're right about the swiftboating, though.
Once the Reps went after Kerry's service, they put a target on the
back of every vet running for office, whether the charges are true or
not, matter or not.
The Bush crowd gave all vets that legacy.
Vets' service isn't simply honored/respected - it is suspected and
questioned. Trash the vet's service for political points.
Thanks GWB.

--Vic


Kerry lied his ass off. That's why he got what he deserved.



McCain is lying his ass off. That's one of the reasons why he may get
trounced on the 4th of November.

John H[_2_] October 13th 08 02:18 AM

Whoops - McCain's Military Record Questioned...
 
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