On 21 Dec 2003 16:58:48 GMT, Drew Cutter wrote:

Gary S. -
The cleveland club shuts down its out door activities for Dec, Jan . I
live a couple of hours from the lake. The reservoirs and one lake stay
partly open around here . Is it better to get a one piece or two piece
dry suit ? One piece are expensive. i will have to check the land
classes. The ski season around here is getting shorter . Allot of man
made snow. Lift ticket prices are getting out of sight . It now cost
75.00 dollars in vermont for one day.

Not my specialty, but my understanding is that a one-piece drysuit
with insulating layers underneath is your best choice for cold water.

No dispute that they get pricey, but some aggressive shopping may help
with that, especially in the off season. Safety equipment is not the
best place to skimp.

I thought that most whitewater and sea kayaking groups did winter pool
sessions during the time they were not outside.

For $75, I would expect gold-plated snow.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Yes , most do pool session this time of year. I did find a winter
survival class in the upper Michigan $160.00 for two days . A bit far
for me to drive. Rolling session are nice for indoors. But their are
some skills that i want to do outside. i.e survival skills.

I guess it sorta of liking cycling. You don't skimp on what going to
make you comfortable and safe. Cycling shorts , shoes , good pedals -
come to mind.

Drew Cutter wrote:
Brian ,

The boat is nc kayak - expedition . The boat is 19'2" long. It has the
ability of carrying 450 lbs.

In a boat that big, you should have no problems with space. Remember,
it's got 2-3 times the space of a typical winter backpack. The key is to
pack efficiently. One of the best items I've found to help with that is
Voyageur's tapered dry/float bags. They allow you to pack items well
into the bow and stern, yet still retrieve them easily. When not being
used to carry gear, they function as float bags.

--
Regards

Brian

Here in sunny Southern California we do sea kayaking year round. In the
winter one might have to switch from a short sleeved paddling jacket to a long
sleeved one - but that's about it. I teach classes in sea kayaking and kayak
surf technique year round here as well. In the winter we will typically get the
better surf from the winter storms, and the tourists have all gone home, making
winter the premier time for the more hard core kayak surfers.

As for the down verses synthetic sleeping bag, this has been much debated on
these newsgroups for years. A large enough group of paddlers seem to get by
just fine with their down bags that I have to believe that they do not pose a
significant problem in this sport. The one caveat to this is for those people
who do a lot of extended camping in very rainy and wet conditions. The bag will
get wet not necessarily from being in the boat, but from perspiration and just
general use in very damp conditions and can be difficult to dry out. In such
extreme conditions I have to believe that the paddler would be better off with
a synthetic bag.

Scott
So.Cal.

Timo Noko wrote:

In article ,
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Richard Ferguson wrote:


I assume you will wear a wet suit.

Are you kidding? A wetsuit is NOT suitable for the kind of conditions
one may find in The Great Lakes area in the winter. A dry suit is the



Brian knows already that this arctic wet/drysuit controversy is over.

This is now widely recognized as the ultimate truth on this matter:

Ultimate truth??? Be careful, you may get hurt patting yourself on the
back so hard!

Your system works for YOU because it's custom made to fit you and your
paddling needs and you're willing to endure being wet and smelly in a
cold environment for weeks on end. Personally, I can't think of any good
reason to do so when there is an alternative like a
waterproof/breathable dry suit with suitable underlayers. It's far more
comfortable, works in a broader range of temperatures and the
undergarments do double duty, reducing the bulk one must carry. Most
importantly, it will keep you DRY, which is critical to warmth, safety
and hygiene in a cold environment. At the end of the day, I can shed my
dry suit, throw on shell gear and I'm dry and good to go. Can you say
the same?

You've decided that your system is best for YOU, but that hardly means
it's best for every paddler. The "ultimate truth" is that it's not. Most
people are simply not going to be comfortable in 6mm neoprene in a
kayak. The argument about catastrophic failure of a dry suit is a
"tempest in a teapot". Theoretically, it can happen, but the reality is
that dry suit materials are very strong and they resist abrasion and
tears very well. For most paddlers, the odds of a dry suit failure are
probably about the same as being struck by lightning.

I'm glad you're happy in your neoprene "dry suit"; I'm just as happy in
my Gore-Tex one, and probably a lot more comfortable.

--
Regards

Brian

In article , Ki Ayker wrote:

get wet not necessarily from being in the boat, but from perspiration
and just general use in very damp conditions and can be difficult to
dry out. In such

Congratulations, you made the right step out from the miserable
clueness this thread was stuck into.

The answer is VAPOR BARRIER. This is an air-proof bag you use inside
the sleeping bag to keep it dry from perspiration. In extreme
coldness the sleeping bag frozes within minutes and any moisture just
cannot get out.

Of course there is slight discomfort sleeping (preferably naked) in
your own sweat. Propably not very good for Brian who seems abhor his
own stench above all.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:04:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Timo Noko) wrote:

The answer is VAPOR BARRIER. This is an air-proof bag you use inside
the sleeping bag to keep it dry from perspiration. In extreme
coldness the sleeping bag frozes within minutes and any moisture just
cannot get out.

Of course there is slight discomfort sleeping (preferably naked) in
your own sweat. Propably not very good for Brian who seems abhor his
own stench above all.

Vapor barrier bag liners make a great deal of sense in well below
freezing temps.

Good technical description at www.warmlite.com, specifically:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm (Note to the prudish: close your eyes
when viewing this site)

Many prefer a light layer of synthetic long undies inside a VBL, but
that is personal preference.

Yes, it gets a little funky, but if you are that concerned with
smelling pretty, winter camping (or any camping) may not be for you.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

In article , Gary S. wrote:
Good technical description at www.warmlite.com, specifically:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm

This is truly excellent site. The Absolute Truth as me myself have
also observed it.

Last week I myself actually made a sleeping bag whose innest layer is
water-proof eg the Vapor Barrier Layer is in-built. Notice the
approriate X-massy color schema. I pretty sure that this 1200 gram
bag will suffice at -30C. Unfortunately it is only -7C here in
Helsinki.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/timo.noko/pussi.jpg

On 22-Dec-2003, Gary S. Idontwantspam@net wrote:

Good technical description at www.warmlite.com, specifically:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm (Note to the prudish: close your eyes
when viewing this site)

Most of which is of secondary importance. The real reason for a vapour
barrier in a sleeping bag or winter clothing is to keep the insulation
dry (just like the vapour barrier in your house walls).

Polar adventurers have suffered from getting their down sleeping bags
soaked with water vapour that has condensed in the insulation (at the
point where the temperature in the insulation is the dew point).
Eventually, they end up with a bag that is frozen solid. This can't keep
you warm. One of the documentaries in the Banff Mountain Film Festival
showed this a few years ago.

Heat loss is irrelevant compared to this. However, it seems that the
manufacturers have picked up on it as a major selling point.

Mike

"Timo Noko" wrote in message
...
In article , Ki Ayker wrote:

get wet not necessarily from being in the boat, but from perspiration
and just general use in very damp conditions and can be difficult to
dry out. In such

Congratulations, you made the right step out from the miserable
clueness this thread was stuck into.

The answer is VAPOR BARRIER. This is an air-proof bag you use inside
the sleeping bag to keep it dry from perspiration. In extreme
coldness the sleeping bag frozes within minutes and any moisture just
cannot get out.


....stuff deleted

What works (comfortably) in winter conditions in, say, Finland, Minnesota,
and the like. is a lot different than, say, what will work on the west coast
of the US. Even in Washington, you have to worry about external, not
internal, moisture. I'd drown in my own sweat in such a rig. I doubt not
your knowledge of winter kayaking in cold weather and would probably emulate
your choices (though I'd probably go with a dry suit, it just makes paddling
more comfortable). It just doesn't get that cold on the coast here (40F-55F,
rain, wind, and fog). Santa Barbara and south is a different story. There,
you will have warmer water, weather, and less rain.

That said, a wet bag is worse than useless. The first priority is to keep it
dry from the elements. The second is to keep it dry from personal
excretions. For those in rainy conditions, a polartec bag is probably the
way to go. For those who are worried only about immersion in water, any bag
will do that is properly protected from bilge water.

As you point out, any bag that is wet and then freezes may function as well
as an igloo, if it's thermal integrity is not seriously compromised, but
it'd be difficult to repack in the boat (grin).

Rick