Here in sunny Southern California we do sea kayaking year round. In the
winter one might have to switch from a short sleeved paddling jacket to a long
sleeved one - but that's about it. I teach classes in sea kayaking and kayak
surf technique year round here as well. In the winter we will typically get the
better surf from the winter storms, and the tourists have all gone home, making
winter the premier time for the more hard core kayak surfers.

As for the down verses synthetic sleeping bag, this has been much debated on
these newsgroups for years. A large enough group of paddlers seem to get by
just fine with their down bags that I have to believe that they do not pose a
significant problem in this sport. The one caveat to this is for those people
who do a lot of extended camping in very rainy and wet conditions. The bag will
get wet not necessarily from being in the boat, but from perspiration and just
general use in very damp conditions and can be difficult to dry out. In such
extreme conditions I have to believe that the paddler would be better off with
a synthetic bag.

Scott
So.Cal.

In article , Ki Ayker wrote:

get wet not necessarily from being in the boat, but from perspiration
and just general use in very damp conditions and can be difficult to
dry out. In such

Congratulations, you made the right step out from the miserable
clueness this thread was stuck into.

The answer is VAPOR BARRIER. This is an air-proof bag you use inside
the sleeping bag to keep it dry from perspiration. In extreme
coldness the sleeping bag frozes within minutes and any moisture just
cannot get out.

Of course there is slight discomfort sleeping (preferably naked) in
your own sweat. Propably not very good for Brian who seems abhor his
own stench above all.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:04:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Timo Noko) wrote:

The answer is VAPOR BARRIER. This is an air-proof bag you use inside
the sleeping bag to keep it dry from perspiration. In extreme
coldness the sleeping bag frozes within minutes and any moisture just
cannot get out.

Of course there is slight discomfort sleeping (preferably naked) in
your own sweat. Propably not very good for Brian who seems abhor his
own stench above all.

Vapor barrier bag liners make a great deal of sense in well below
freezing temps.

Good technical description at www.warmlite.com, specifically:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm (Note to the prudish: close your eyes
when viewing this site)

Many prefer a light layer of synthetic long undies inside a VBL, but
that is personal preference.

Yes, it gets a little funky, but if you are that concerned with
smelling pretty, winter camping (or any camping) may not be for you.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

In article , Gary S. wrote:
Good technical description at www.warmlite.com, specifically:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm

This is truly excellent site. The Absolute Truth as me myself have
also observed it.

Last week I myself actually made a sleeping bag whose innest layer is
water-proof eg the Vapor Barrier Layer is in-built. Notice the
approriate X-massy color schema. I pretty sure that this 1200 gram
bag will suffice at -30C. Unfortunately it is only -7C here in
Helsinki.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/timo.noko/pussi.jpg

On 22-Dec-2003, Gary S. Idontwantspam@net wrote:

Good technical description at www.warmlite.com, specifically:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm (Note to the prudish: close your eyes
when viewing this site)

Most of which is of secondary importance. The real reason for a vapour
barrier in a sleeping bag or winter clothing is to keep the insulation
dry (just like the vapour barrier in your house walls).

Polar adventurers have suffered from getting their down sleeping bags
soaked with water vapour that has condensed in the insulation (at the
point where the temperature in the insulation is the dew point).
Eventually, they end up with a bag that is frozen solid. This can't keep
you warm. One of the documentaries in the Banff Mountain Film Festival
showed this a few years ago.

Heat loss is irrelevant compared to this. However, it seems that the
manufacturers have picked up on it as a major selling point.

Mike

In article . rogers.com,
Michael Daly wrote:
Heat loss is irrelevant compared to this.

Not so. If the Sleeping Bag is rated for -10C, the Vapor Barrier
lowers the rating to -20C. But because there is no danger of water
condensation, you can use water-proof Bivouac Bag also, which further
lowers the rating to -30C.

In case of emergency it is good to know that couple of heavy duty
garbage bags can turn your 100 euro backyard bag into $400 polar bag.

Timo Noko wrote:

In article . rogers.com,
Michael Daly wrote:

Heat loss is irrelevant compared to this.


Not so. If the Sleeping Bag is rated for -10C, the Vapor Barrier
lowers the rating to -20C. But because there is no danger of water
condensation, you can use water-proof Bivouac Bag also, which further
lowers the rating to -30C.

In case of emergency it is good to know that couple of heavy duty
garbage bags can turn your 100 euro backyard bag into $400 polar bag.

Agreed. I use a lightweight bag that is normally comfortable down to about
30 F. If it'll be colder than that I use a vapor barrier inside and that
way I've been comfortable down to nearly 0 F. It's a very inexpensive and
lightweight way to increase the low-temperature range of the sleeping bag.
Also cuts down on water loss overnight so I'm not as thirsty in the morning.

On 22-Dec-2003, Peter wrote:

Heat loss is irrelevant compared to this.


Not so.[...]

Agreed. [...]

My point is that if there is no vapour barrier, then soaking your
insulation is a serious problem, whereas adding the vapour barrier
only increases the temperature rating a bit. If you want warmer,
buy a heavier bag; if you want dry insulation, get a vapour barrier.
Increased warmth is a byproduct of using a vapour barrier, not a
reason for buying one.

Mike

"Timo Noko" wrote in message
...
In article , Ki Ayker wrote:

get wet not necessarily from being in the boat, but from perspiration
and just general use in very damp conditions and can be difficult to
dry out. In such

Congratulations, you made the right step out from the miserable
clueness this thread was stuck into.

The answer is VAPOR BARRIER. This is an air-proof bag you use inside
the sleeping bag to keep it dry from perspiration. In extreme
coldness the sleeping bag frozes within minutes and any moisture just
cannot get out.


....stuff deleted

What works (comfortably) in winter conditions in, say, Finland, Minnesota,
and the like. is a lot different than, say, what will work on the west coast
of the US. Even in Washington, you have to worry about external, not
internal, moisture. I'd drown in my own sweat in such a rig. I doubt not
your knowledge of winter kayaking in cold weather and would probably emulate
your choices (though I'd probably go with a dry suit, it just makes paddling
more comfortable). It just doesn't get that cold on the coast here (40F-55F,
rain, wind, and fog). Santa Barbara and south is a different story. There,
you will have warmer water, weather, and less rain.

That said, a wet bag is worse than useless. The first priority is to keep it
dry from the elements. The second is to keep it dry from personal
excretions. For those in rainy conditions, a polartec bag is probably the
way to go. For those who are worried only about immersion in water, any bag
will do that is properly protected from bilge water.

As you point out, any bag that is wet and then freezes may function as well
as an igloo, if it's thermal integrity is not seriously compromised, but
it'd be difficult to repack in the boat (grin).

Rick

On 22-Dec-2003, "Rick" wrote:

As you point out, any bag that is wet and then freezes may function as well
as an igloo,

Poor analogy - actually, igloos and quinzees can be nice and warm (well,
compared to a tent or open air).

Your other points are valid - using a vapour barrier at higher temperatures
than ideal may increase your warmth, but decrease your comfort. I wouldn't
use a VB until the temp is cold enough to warrant worrying about wet
insulation from insensible perspiration.

Mike