Hello there. I have been paddling for several winters now in below 0C
temperature. I have a dry suit and all the goods. I have a question about
what people do in regards to their skirts freezing to their coaming.

What do you do to stop it? What is your back-up plan if you run into
trouble with it? I have been trying to work through an emerge plan. I have
a fairly solid roll but you never know when you are dealing with such cold
winter so I am trying to figure out a plan for a failed roll. I have a
knife and working out a plan to cut myself out of the skirt if necessary.

Any ideas?

Paddling in Toronto,

David

Would vaseline be okay? As long as it is compatible with whatever rubber is in
your skirt? Just a little bead all the way around? Shouldn't freeze and
should stay slick, unless it gums up.

Contact the skirt maker and then try it out in your back yard.

Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

Hello there. I have been paddling for several winters now in below 0C
temperature. I have a dry suit and all the goods. I have a question about
what people do in regards to their skirts freezing to their coaming.

What do you do to stop it? What is your back-up plan if you run into
trouble with it? I have been trying to work through an emerge plan. I have
a fairly solid roll but you never know when you are dealing with such cold
winter so I am trying to figure out a plan for a failed roll. I have a
knife and working out a plan to cut myself out of the skirt if necessary.

Any ideas?

Paddling in Toronto,

On 10-Jan-2004, (SWMSGoodman) wrote:

Would vaseline be okay? As long as it is compatible with whatever rubber is in
your skirt? Just a little bead all the way around? Shouldn't freeze and
should stay slick, unless it gums up.

Silicone grease would be safer. If this is a plastic kayak, I could see using it,
but not on a composite.

How much ice are we talking about? It would have to be fairly thick to prevent
you from removing the skirt. Pulling the skirt release strap several times
during a paddle should break the ice before it builds up too much.

If the tube isn't too tight, you can get out of the kayak and leave the
skirt behind - though this should be practiced to confirm.

Mike

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:50:14 GMT, "Michael Daly"
wrote:

On 10-Jan-2004, (SWMSGoodman) wrote:

Would vaseline be okay? As long as it is compatible with whatever rubber is in
your skirt? Just a little bead all the way around? Shouldn't freeze and
should stay slick, unless it gums up.

Silicone grease would be safer. If this is a plastic kayak, I could see using it,
but not on a composite.

Vaseline can break down certain materials over time, especially many
types of rubber. Silicone grease or something like Armor All (a slick
rubber protectant spray) would be better choices.

How much ice are we talking about? It would have to be fairly thick to prevent
you from removing the skirt. Pulling the skirt release strap several times
during a paddle should break the ice before it builds up too much.

If the tube isn't too tight, you can get out of the kayak and leave the
skirt behind - though this should be practiced to confirm.

Whatever you want should be tested before a real problem.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:53:15 GMT, akasharkbow
wrote:

Hello there. I have been paddling for several winters now in below 0C
temperature. I have a dry suit and all the goods. I have a question about
what people do in regards to their skirts freezing to their coaming.

David,

I have paddled several times in freezing weather, but in a fairly
large group of people. Mostly on small rivers, where in most cases
if I took a dunking, I could just stand up and walk to shore.

I generally just do this on New Years day, So I prepare well for the
trip. It's not something I take lightly. I think you are
miscalculating. To me you sound like a fairly new paddler, so hooked
on your new hobby you just have to go out, ( i know, I've been
there)and damn the weather. I bet you can't talk any of your friends
in to going on these winter trips, ( if you had anyone to paddle with,
you could ask them how they handle ice build up on their
spayskirt)there is probably a reason for this.

I think you are making a mistake.

I would like for you to try something, In your back yard if you can,
if not, do it where ever you launch your boat(but bring a friend.)
Put on all the gear you would normally wear while paddling.
Then sit out side for a couple hours and then submerse yourself in
water that is very near freezing in temp. Hold your head under water
for a minute and a half.

Good, now swim around for oh say, ten minutes. Now see if you still
have the ability to bail out a boat half filled with water? Now get
back in the boat and simulate paddling home.

I don't know about you, but I don't think you could pay me enough to
do the above. But my point is anybody could paddle in the cold if
nothing goes wrong, but can you do it after everything go wrong?
What happen if you get half way through a trip you take a dunking,
then self rescue, then start paddling home and have to self rescue
again before you get back to safety.

Brrrr!!!





What do you do to stop it? What is your back-up plan if you run into
trouble with it? I have been trying to work through an emerge plan. I have
a fairly solid roll but you never know when you are dealing with such cold
winter so I am trying to figure out a plan for a failed roll. I have a
knife and working out a plan to cut myself out of the skirt if necessary.

Sound like you are at least thinking about what could go wrong.
But you should practice when you have someone around to help you.

Make sure you are good enough with that knife that, when you cut
through the sprayskirt you don't cut your legs or even your drysuit.

Bottom line.... I think winter solo paddling is just nuts.
Winter paddling with a group is crazy, but I'll do it on a small river
with people I know and trust. They have to know me well enough to know
when I'm hypothermic.

I know you love winter paddling to death, but don't let it kill you.

Why not save up some money and take a week off during the dead of
winter and go to some tropical island and paddle for a week in
comfort?

David, please think about what I said, comment on it if you want, but
please think about it.

George (not paddling this winter)



Any ideas?

Paddling in Toronto,

David

SWMSGoodman wrote:
Would vaseline be okay?

Absolutely NOT! Any petroleum product will degrade rubber, which means
is will trash the neoprene and the bungee/rand.


--
Regards

Brian

....stuff deleted

Hello there. I have been paddling for several winters now in below 0C
temperature. I have a dry suit and all the goods. I have a question about
what people do in regards to their skirts freezing to their coaming.

David,


I think you are making a mistake.

....stuff about swimming in Toronto (or other cold winters) deleted

I tend to agree. If you can't roll up, you are in a bad situation. Short of
a hull failure, it is preferable to roll up than to swim. Note that a
successful roll is considerably easier to perform than a re-entry in these
conditions. Also note that native kayakers often were sewed into their boats
(a condition not unlike having the skirt frozen to the boat) because
re-entry was essentially impossible due to exposure. Survival times in 32F
water (31 or so on the ocean) are frighteningly short. Physical control of
the hands begins to degrade almost immediately (often in 20 seconds or
less - frequently during that period where you are still attempting to catch
your breath after the cold hits you in the solar plexus with George Forman
efficiency). While I sort of admire those who paddle in such conditions, I'm
not certain I would enjoy paddling with such a narrow survival envelope.

What do you do to stop it? What is your back-up plan if you run into
trouble with it? I have been trying to work through an emerge plan. I
have
a fairly solid roll but you never know when you are dealing with such
cold
winter so I am trying to figure out a plan for a failed roll. I have a
knife and working out a plan to cut myself out of the skirt if necessary.

....stuff deleted

Cutting that skirt would likely be as fatal as staying in the boat and
repeating the roll attempt. Remember that the conditions that caused the
capsize haven't changed. If you do successfully re-enter, you will be
sitting in a puddle of 32F water in an unstable boat, with hands that
probably can't operate your pump, and the prospect of water flooding the
cockpit at any time. Not a very pleasing situation to be in.

If you can't trust your roll, don't go out in these conditions. A wet exit,
even in an dry or exposure suit, will be a very unpleasant experience. On
the positive side, you may as well paddle alone in this conditions. The odds
of another paddler successfully recovering you from these conditions are
pretty low. The eskimo rescue (which usually takes longer to set up than
paddlers can hold their breath in sub 50F water) is by no means a sure thing
and it also relies up you maintaining muscle control). You might be better
off with a process for adding a floatation device on the end of your paddle
(paddle float or foam floatation) while underwater and using that as a
adjunct to your roll. Either of these rescues are more likely to be
successful than would a wet exit and re-entry, IMO. You won't be buying a
significant amount of safety with additional paddlers around.

Rick

On 11-Jan-2004, "Rick" wrote:

I think you are making a mistake.

...stuff about swimming in Toronto (or other cold winters) deleted

I tend to agree.
[...]
A wet exit,
even in an dry or exposure suit, will be a very unpleasant experience. On
the positive side, you may as well paddle alone in this conditions. The odds
of another paddler successfully recovering you from these conditions are
pretty low.
[...]
IMO. You won't be buying a
significant amount of safety with additional paddlers around.

Highly exaggerated IMNSHO.

I paddle in the winter in the Toronto area as well.

I've gone for swims several times in my drysuit - that's how I've tested it.
I managed to dunk into icy water just last week while getting into the kayak.
I was a tad overconfident that I could enter the ocean cockpit without a paddle
brace (since I had the pogies on the paddle and didn't want them to get wet).

The OP is an experienced paddler, not a beginner, according to his first post.
He has a roll but is concerned about his skirt freezing up in the event of a
wet exit. I've never experienced icing problems freezing the skirt, so
I'm curious as to what exactly is happening.

_IF_ you've trained in cold water, you know what it's like to get a face full
of icy water. You should not have a gasp reflex and you will have full dexterity
for the time it takes to set up a roll.

If you wet exit, and your dry suit is adequately insulated, only your hands are
going to suffer - you can lose dexterity starting in seconds even though the
muscles that control the hands are warm inside the drysuit.

I find that I often paddle with bare hands in cold weather and my hands stay wet.
Even when I wear gloves, they are usually soaked. Pogies are too warm and awkward
most of the time, though I always give them the benefit of the doubt at the start
of the day. The only time I have problems is in the wind - the wind chill forces
me to wear gloves.

One interesting fact is that if you paddle with wet hands in cold water, your
body acclimatizes. You cease to lose significant dexterity even though your
hands stay cold. This has been seen among tradesmen who work in cold environments
continuously. For example, those who work in fish plants, cleaning and filleting
fish can work in near freezing water all day without problems.

My experience is that you should be able to use your hands for a longer period
under these conditions than would a person with warm, dry hands (like those
with waterproof gloves).

As far as rescues go - I see no reason why other paddlers couldn't come to your
aid. It's no different that paddling in warm conditions other than the temperature.

There is one factor that can contribute to an upset in these conditions that does
not involve rough weather - ice. Rafting onto ice destabilizes the kayak and if
you're putting paddle force into the ice to move and your paddle slips, you start
to go over - a missed recovery could result in a tip. Setting up a roll could
be troublesome - a vertical roll or deep water roll could be better than a sweep
or C-C. Under these conditions, an assisted rescue is straightforward assuming
the other paddlers are going thru the ice ducky style.

The issue is not whether paddling in the cold is too dangerous, but whether you've
prepared for the conditions and practiced your technique (solo or otherwise) to
handle the conditions.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message ble.rogers.com...
On 11-Jan-2004, "Rick" wrote:

I think you are making a mistake.

...stuff about swimming in Toronto (or other cold winters) deleted

I tend to agree.
[...]
A wet exit,
even in an dry or exposure suit, will be a very unpleasant experience. On
the positive side, you may as well paddle alone in this conditions. The odds
of another paddler successfully recovering you from these conditions are
pretty low.
[...]
IMO. You won't be buying a
significant amount of safety with additional paddlers around.

Highly exaggerated IMNSHO.

I paddle in the winter in the Toronto area as well.

I've gone for swims several times in my drysuit - that's how I've tested it.
I managed to dunk into icy water just last week while getting into the kayak.
I was a tad overconfident that I could enter the ocean cockpit without a paddle
brace (since I had the pogies on the paddle and didn't want them to get wet).

The OP is an experienced paddler, not a beginner, according to his first post.
He has a roll but is concerned about his skirt freezing up in the event of a
wet exit. I've never experienced icing problems freezing the skirt, so
I'm curious as to what exactly is happening.

_IF_ you've trained in cold water, you know what it's like to get a face full
of icy water. You should not have a gasp reflex and you will have full dexterity
for the time it takes to set up a roll.

If you wet exit, and your dry suit is adequately insulated, only your hands are
going to suffer - you can lose dexterity starting in seconds even though the
muscles that control the hands are warm inside the drysuit.

I find that I often paddle with bare hands in cold weather and my hands stay wet.
Even when I wear gloves, they are usually soaked. Pogies are too warm and awkward
most of the time, though I always give them the benefit of the doubt at the start
of the day. The only time I have problems is in the wind - the wind chill forces
me to wear gloves.

One interesting fact is that if you paddle with wet hands in cold water, your
body acclimatizes. You cease to lose significant dexterity even though your
hands stay cold. This has been seen among tradesmen who work in cold environments
continuously. For example, those who work in fish plants, cleaning and filleting
fish can work in near freezing water all day without problems.

My experience is that you should be able to use your hands for a longer period
under these conditions than would a person with warm, dry hands (like those
with waterproof gloves).

As far as rescues go - I see no reason why other paddlers couldn't come to your
aid. It's no different that paddling in warm conditions other than the temperature.

There is one factor that can contribute to an upset in these conditions that does
not involve rough weather - ice. Rafting onto ice destabilizes the kayak and if
you're putting paddle force into the ice to move and your paddle slips, you start
to go over - a missed recovery could result in a tip. Setting up a roll could
be troublesome - a vertical roll or deep water roll could be better than a sweep
or C-C. Under these conditions, an assisted rescue is straightforward assuming
the other paddlers are going thru the ice ducky style.

The issue is not whether paddling in the cold is too dangerous, but whether you've
prepared for the conditions and practiced your technique (solo or otherwise) to
handle the conditions.

Mike

I paddle in this stuff all the time.
Four weeks ago I had to do the third real roll of my kayaking career.
That excludes White water, surfing, polo, courses and rolls where I
knew I would likely be over..
I Was dumped on by a large breaking wave much larger than the ones in
the surf zone I was paddling just outside of. The decks got cleared of
my pump, water bottle, spare paddle and the neoprene hat was pulled
off my head.
It took 2 or three tries to roll up in the washing machine but I did ,
right on time to be left high and dry on the beach,
I have had a problem with a spray deck once in Feb 2001. I left the
grab look inside on my Wild Spray White Water spray deck that was on
my sea kayak.
I managed to get it off but it was a hell of a job.
I wear a dry suit in all seasons but late summer early fall.
Some other twists. Your pump freezes, The tow line becomes a lump of
rock. Your paddle float ( Inflatable) bladder freezes . The styraphome
one sticks together and the string freezes. I have never had a spray
deck freeze.
Advice, Choose your days or nights carefully, stay close to shore ,
carry safety gear that can get you warm fast. Use a hand flare to get
a camp fire going RIGHT NOW should you go over.
Winter is fine but the rules are different.
Oh . I am on the ocean so the great lakes likely freeze over in a way
that would scare me.
Have fun.
Alex