Hi,
I'm relatively new to the sport and currently paddle a light touring
kayak in fla****er rivers. Am I missing something by not doing the
same with a canoe? Fundamentally, why choose one over the other? Are
kayaks faster? Are canoes safer? What about wind and current? Is it
harder to control the direction of a canoe than a kayak under the same
conditions?

Thanks,
Gene

Gene--A thousand or so years ago, kayaks were developed and designed for
open water hunting (seals and walruses) whereas canoes were designed for
carrying people and gear. Neither is inherently safer than the other--choose
the conditions; both have positives and negatives. Kayaks are generally
faster, although I've easily beaten a kayak (both solo) in my canoe--depends
upon the skill, strength of the paddler.

Personally, I'll nearly always choose a canoe. I like to boat in fla****ers
and carry a lot of camping gear. If I were interested in "big waters" I'd
choose a kayak. I find it much easier to control a canoe--perhaps because
I've canoed for more than 40 years, and kayaked for only about 10 years :-).

Dunno if this helps, but I hope this will be an interesting thread.

Bill

"Gene Cosloy" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
I'm relatively new to the sport and currently paddle a light touring
kayak in fla****er rivers. Am I missing something by not doing the
same with a canoe? Fundamentally, why choose one over the other? Are
kayaks faster? Are canoes safer? What about wind and current? Is it
harder to control the direction of a canoe than a kayak under the same
conditions?

Thanks,
Gene




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Gene Cosloy" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
I'm relatively new to the sport and currently paddle a light touring
kayak in fla****er rivers. Am I missing something by not doing the
same with a canoe?

Maybe. The only way to find out is to try a canoe.

Fundamentally, why choose one over the other?

I started in kayaks & switched to canoes. Reasons were the ability to carry
a family & big packs, problems with my back in a kayak, the ability to
easily portage, no drip from the blade in the air, easier entry & exit at
wilderness landings. You'll have different reasons for your choice.

Are kayaks faster?

That depends on the individual designs. In general though, a kayak is
noticably faster than a canoe of similar length, because it has a narrower
waterline width (lower wave resistance at high speed) & a 2 bladed paddle
(more strokes per minute). It may be slower over long distances though. If
it has greater wetted area, it'll have more frictional resistance. The
extra weight of the 2 bladed paddle may be more fatiguing. If you're like
me, you'll have trouble slowing your kayak paddling cadence to avoid
fatigue. It's easy to slow the cadence with a canoe paddle.

My son & I did a 6 day trip in Algonquin Park in solo canoes. He had the
faster boat & started with a double paddle. As the trip progressed, he
switched to a canoe paddle. He was a bit slower, but could paddle more
distance each day without tiring.

Are canoes safer?

I'd much rather have a kayak than a canoe in rough conditions ( stormy lake
or big rapids) because it has a deck to shed water & the low seating
position gives great stability & control. With training, you can learn to
"eskimo" roll a kayak to self rescue. Canoes need floatation bags or spray
decks to handle big rapids, essentially turning them into fat kayaks.

The chances of being trapped in a pinned kayak in rapids may be a lot
greater than in an open canoe.

What about wind and current? Is it
harder to control the direction of a canoe than a kayak under the same
conditions?

That depends on the individual design. However, kayaks are generally much
less affected by wind because they are lower & their decks streamline them.

Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc

On 14 Jan 2004 08:08:35 -0800, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

Hi,
I'm relatively new to the sport and currently paddle a light touring
kayak in fla****er rivers. Am I missing something by not doing the
same with a canoe? Fundamentally, why choose one over the other? Are
kayaks faster? Are canoes safer? What about wind and current? Is it
harder to control the direction of a canoe than a kayak under the same
conditions?

Kayaks are much, much better than canoes. I mean that in the spiritual
sense. I don't mean to imply that kayaks are faster, safer, handle wind
and current a lot better than a canoe, and that kayaks are hands-down
easier to control than a canoe. Although all that is true, I don't mean to
imply it. If you think of it in Good vs Evil terms (and you should) you
will quickly see that kayaks are gentle, yet strong when necessary, fine,
thrifty, loyal, brave boats and that canoes are sniveling, whining cowards.
Did you know that in Old Indian the word "canoe" means "silly boat we
conned the white man into using with silly paddle he also think we used"?
Furthermore, canoes have to be stored upside-down, or they will run away.
Kayaks, on the other hand, would never even think of running away, and can
be stored right side up. Canoes have to be spanked to get them to go
forward. You may hear it referred to as a "J Stroke" or something, but it
is simply a way for the canoeist to beat their boat underwater. Why do you
think canoeists call them "paddles"? You'll notice canoeists always have
to keep their paddles close to the boat, lest an unexpected beating be
necessary. Kayakers, however, are strictly involved with propulsion, and
don't have to constantly be ready to beat their boats into submission.
Hey, canoes have their place. They make fine planters with plenty of room.
Say you want lots of exercise, and there is no better exercise than trying
to paddle a canoe. No doubt someone will mention you can carry a lot of
stuff in a canoe. A barge can carry a lot too. Come to think of it...

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

"Galen Hekhuis" wrote...

Did you know that in Old Indian the word "canoe" means "silly boat we
conned the white man into using with silly paddle he also think we used"?
Furthermore, canoes have to be stored upside-down, or they will run away.
Kayaks, on the other hand, would never even think of running away, and can
be stored right side up. Canoes have to be spanked to get them to go
forward. You may hear it referred to as a "J Stroke" or something, but it
is simply a way for the canoeist to beat their boat underwater. Why do you
think canoeists call them "paddles"? You'll notice canoeists always have
to keep their paddles close to the boat, lest an unexpected beating be
necessary. Kayakers, however, are strictly involved with propulsion, and
don't have to constantly be ready to beat their boats into submission.

OTOH, if you want the load-carrying ability of a canoe and the elegance and
seaworthiness of a kayak, get a Guideboat instead!

Galen--As per my previous post...if you want to hunt seals, use a kayak,
otherwise, a canoe is by far the preferable boat. BTW canoe, in most native
tongues, means "sleek, elegant boat, that handles all conditions with
aplomb."
:-)


"Galen Hekhuis" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jan 2004 08:08:35 -0800, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

Hi,
I'm relatively new to the sport and currently paddle a light touring
kayak in fla****er rivers. Am I missing something by not doing the
same with a canoe? Fundamentally, why choose one over the other? Are
kayaks faster? Are canoes safer? What about wind and current? Is it
harder to control the direction of a canoe than a kayak under the same
conditions?

Kayaks are much, much better than canoes. I mean that in the spiritual
sense. I don't mean to imply that kayaks are faster, safer, handle wind
and current a lot better than a canoe, and that kayaks are hands-down
easier to control than a canoe. Although all that is true, I don't mean
to
imply it. If you think of it in Good vs Evil terms (and you should) you
will quickly see that kayaks are gentle, yet strong when necessary, fine,
thrifty, loyal, brave boats and that canoes are sniveling, whining
cowards.
Did you know that in Old Indian the word "canoe" means "silly boat we
conned the white man into using with silly paddle he also think we used"?
Furthermore, canoes have to be stored upside-down, or they will run away.
Kayaks, on the other hand, would never even think of running away, and can
be stored right side up. Canoes have to be spanked to get them to go
forward. You may hear it referred to as a "J Stroke" or something, but it
is simply a way for the canoeist to beat their boat underwater. Why do
you
think canoeists call them "paddles"? You'll notice canoeists always have
to keep their paddles close to the boat, lest an unexpected beating be
necessary. Kayakers, however, are strictly involved with propulsion, and
don't have to constantly be ready to beat their boats into submission.
Hey, canoes have their place. They make fine planters with plenty of
room.
Say you want lots of exercise, and there is no better exercise than trying
to paddle a canoe. No doubt someone will mention you can carry a lot of
stuff in a canoe. A barge can carry a lot too. Come to think of it...

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:24:38 -0500, "WG"
wrote:
BTW canoe, in most native tongues, means "sleek, elegant boat, that
handles all conditions with
aplomb."
:-)


Aw, you jes makin' that up.....

-Dan V.

The answers to your questions fill books on the subject.
But I will try to offer some food for thought.
I don't think that it comes down to a choice of "either or"
One factor that no one has mentioned is that in general, and
we must always speak in generalities because there are always
exceptions,...in general, a kayak is designed to go through waves
and a canoe is designed to go over waves. A traditional sea kayak
tends to have a low volume bow entry that will slice through the
wave. A canoe tends to have a fuller "u" section bow entry and so
rides over the wave. Because of this, a kayak needs a deck to keep
water out. Canoes do this by making the bow profile higher at the ends.
Canoes are generally used for more sheltered waters than a sea kayak
which is designed for open water.
If you want to paddle primarily on lakes and rivers, want the option
of having a passenger, want the convienience of easy loading and
unloading of gear,want to bring only one boat instead of two, and
would like a boat that may be more comfortable to sit in for extended
times, a standard 16ft canoe, like an Oldtown Ponobscot is your best
bet.If you want to ride on six foot swells on the ocean, don't need to
carry lots of camping gear, want to cover greater distances in a day,
don't mind bringing a boat for each person and don't want to wait for
the weather to calm down a little more, then a typical greenland style
kayak is the prefered choice.
As usual there are always exceptions.
Here is a link to a photo of a boat I built that is a hybrid of the two
types. http://www.geocities.com/new_old_boa...dex/canoe1.jpg
The boat was designed in 1953 by L.F.Herreshoff, a famous yacht
designer. This boat is a canoe because of its hull shape at the bow.
Most people think it is a kayak because of the deck.
One posters comment about a guideboat is useful I think. If you are
unfamiliar with these, here is a link to a photo of one I built.
http://www.geocities.com/new_old_boa...eguideboat.jpg
All the advantages of a canoe with the mechanical advantage of oars
instead of paddles. Some would call this a disadvantage because you face
aft. This boat is also much faster than a canoe because it has a very
narrow underbody, like a kayak.
There are so many variations in hull design that there are no hard fast
answers as to which is the best boat. It all depends on the conditions
you want to use it in and where you are willing to accept tradeoffs.
Can a person have too many boats? ASK MY WIFE!


Gene Cosloy wrote:
Hi,
I'm relatively new to the sport and currently paddle a light touring
kayak in fla****er rivers. Am I missing something by not doing the
same with a canoe? Fundamentally, why choose one over the other? Are
kayaks faster? Are canoes safer? What about wind and current? Is it
harder to control the direction of a canoe than a kayak under the same
conditions?

Thanks,
Gene

"steveJ" wrote...

I don't think that it comes down to a choice of "either or"

Good point! Get (or build) one (or 2) of each, and add a Guideboat for good
measure!


Here is a link to a photo of a boat I built that is a hybrid of the two
types. http://www.geocities.com/new_old_boa...dex/canoe1.jpg
The boat was designed in 1953 by L.F.Herreshoff, a famous yacht
designer. This boat is a canoe because of its hull shape at the bow.
Most people think it is a kayak because of the deck.

There are a good number of decked canoe designs -- paddle as well as sail --
floating around. If you want to see/row/paddle/sail a sampling of all kinds of
small boats (mostly home-built) together in one place, go to the John Gardner
Small Craft Workshop at Mystic Seaport, CT (http://www.mysticseaport.org/),
first weekend in June.


One posters comment about a guideboat is useful I think. If you are
unfamiliar with these, here is a link to a photo of one I built.
http://www.geocities.com/new_old_boa...eguideboat.jpg
All the advantages of a canoe with the mechanical advantage of oars
instead of paddles. Some would call this a disadvantage because you face
aft. This boat is also much faster than a canoe because it has a very
narrow underbody, like a kayak.

Steve Kaulback (http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/) builds cedar and Kevlar
versions of Guideboats in a range of lengths from 10 to 19 feet. He also sells
kits for the cedar boats.

I don't have a canoe, but built a kayak (http://www.tsca.net/puget/coho1.htm)
and bought a guideboat (http://www.tsca.net/puget/Adirondack.htm). My wife, who
paddled a lot back in her Girl Scout days, thought she wanted a canoe again, but
decided she'd rather have a guideboat so she could take it into Puget Sound,
too. The kayak is more secure in rougher water, but the guideboat handles
moderate swells and waves very well, especially solo. Though you can get 2- or
3-person sea kayaks, a canoe or guideboat definitely holds more people & gear
(550#, for my 15', 65# Kevlar Guideboat). For touring, the guideboat also
tracks much better than the average canoe.

I've sailed for 30+ years and have been kayaking for 4 years, but hadn't gotten
much into rowing. I found that a good boat - lightweight, agile, and swift -
makes all the difference in the world! Looking back at where you just came from
is not a "disadvantage" after you get into it, and the efficiency of rowing
makes it a better choice than paddling for larger boats/loads.

Although I find that facing to the rear can at times be awkward in the
guideboat, normally someone is in the rear seat steering and the oarsman
is in the foward seat rowing. This is where the guideboat excels and it
really is its intended designed use. The helmsman gets to see where you
are going and the oarsman gets to see where you've been. But the big
often overlooked factor is that both people get to face each other for
conversation. Two people can cover a lot of water in a day with a boat
like this compared to a canoe and I think the guideboat will
handle slightly rougher conditions than most canoes. I do not consider
them open water ocean going boats though because it is nearly impossible
to climb back in if capsized and the freeboard is generally too low.
A previous post of mine inquires about alternate designs to deal with
these factors and I will be working on modifications to make the guide
boat more ocean friendly. They are also somewhat limited on fast moving
rivers.

Steve Kaulback (http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/) builds cedar
and Kevlar
versions of Guideboats in a range of lengths from 10 to 19 feet. He
also sells
kits for the cedar boats.

I've seen these boats and have talked with them. They have a nice shop
in Vermont.
There are also a few other people in the Adirondacks building boats like
this. http://adkguideboat.com/
Generally the traditionally built boats are out of reach on price for
average consumers (if there is such a thing)
Kaulback seems to be attempting to offer a mass produced version
for somewhat less money.

SteveJ


John R Weiss wrote:
"steveJ" wrote...


I don't think that it comes down to a choice of "either or"


Good point! Get (or build) one (or 2) of each, and add a Guideboat for good
measure!



Here is a link to a photo of a boat I built that is a hybrid of the two
types. http://www.geocities.com/new_old_boa...dex/canoe1.jpg
The boat was designed in 1953 by L.F.Herreshoff, a famous yacht
designer. This boat is a canoe because of its hull shape at the bow.
Most people think it is a kayak because of the deck.


There are a good number of decked canoe designs -- paddle as well as sail --
floating around. If you want to see/row/paddle/sail a sampling of all kinds of
small boats (mostly home-built) together in one place, go to the John Gardner
Small Craft Workshop at Mystic Seaport, CT (http://www.mysticseaport.org/),
first weekend in June.



One posters comment about a guideboat is useful I think. If you are
unfamiliar with these, here is a link to a photo of one I built.
http://www.geocities.com/new_old_boa...eguideboat.jpg
All the advantages of a canoe with the mechanical advantage of oars
instead of paddles. Some would call this a disadvantage because you face
aft. This boat is also much faster than a canoe because it has a very
narrow underbody, like a kayak.


Steve Kaulback (http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/) builds cedar and Kevlar
versions of Guideboats in a range of lengths from 10 to 19 feet. He also sells
kits for the cedar boats.

I don't have a canoe, but built a kayak (http://www.tsca.net/puget/coho1.htm)
and bought a guideboat (http://www.tsca.net/puget/Adirondack.htm). My wife, who
paddled a lot back in her Girl Scout days, thought she wanted a canoe again, but
decided she'd rather have a guideboat so she could take it into Puget Sound,
too. The kayak is more secure in rougher water, but the guideboat handles
moderate swells and waves very well, especially solo. Though you can get 2- or
3-person sea kayaks, a canoe or guideboat definitely holds more people & gear
(550#, for my 15', 65# Kevlar Guideboat). For touring, the guideboat also
tracks much better than the average canoe.

I've sailed for 30+ years and have been kayaking for 4 years, but hadn't gotten
much into rowing. I found that a good boat - lightweight, agile, and swift -
makes all the difference in the world! Looking back at where you just came from
is not a "disadvantage" after you get into it, and the efficiency of rowing
makes it a better choice than paddling for larger boats/loads.