John Kuthe wrote:

Tim Ingram wrote:

[nothing but sick puppy puke]

See?

I know, but it's so much fun seeing him hang himself, over and over
again. ;-)

Dear Matt:

You must understand that this is a large issue involving the easily
preventable deaths of innocent citizens. I make this clear in

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

I am an old scoutmaster and YMCA counsellor. Also, I have given my
word to parents of dead kids that I shall continue to do my best that
the sick "safety" culture here is obliterated. And the criminals, like
any hate group, attempting to make canoes and kayaks as deadly as
possible, are punished.

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

is only the beginning of an internet based class action legal suit.

We sell cars by safety. In fact all consumer goods must be as safe as
possible. This (RBP) is the only exeption in the US and Canada for
many years.

History and thousands of psychology experiments tell us that bullies
and killers will take advantage of any laxity. They are perfectly
willing to take a few dollars and "blame the victims for killing
themselves". Bait and Switch frauds, sold by the ACA are very common,
effective, and in this unique case, more deadly than bin Laden's
network since Sept 11, by about 200%.

Thanks for your considerate question.

Tim

Matt Langenfeld wrote in message hlink.net...
let's just say there's different opinion and let it go at that. Is the
last word that important?

Tim Ingram wrote:

Dear Mike:

You are exactly the kind of person who would try to sell rolls and
other deadly ideas to Girl Guides apparently. You would not want them
to have any chance to live.

Is it any wonder US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have
by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42)
as any other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering
the death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar
time frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily,
and only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

Or: "Looking at the first six months of each year, the number of
kayaks sold has decreased 50 percent from 12,502 in 2001 to 6,216 in
2003." (Paddler, Jan/Feb 2004, p.8, published by the ACA.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

You are not only hurting sales of canoes and kayaks, you are hurting
scouts and girl guides. What have they done to hurt you?

Please have respect for the value of human life.

And don't be verbally abusive below. It just makes you look mean to
everyone.

Tim

PS:

For more understanding:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html





MikeSoja wrote in message . ..


(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...





Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?


If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja

I reviewed you site and tried a search for the Coast Guard info you
mentioned outside your site with no luck.

Can you provide some links to this inofrmation other than to your web site?



Tim Ingram wrote:

Dear Matt:

You must understand that this is a large issue involving the easily
preventable deaths of innocent citizens. I make this clear in

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

I am an old scoutmaster and YMCA counsellor. Also, I have given my
word to parents of dead kids that I shall continue to do my best that
the sick "safety" culture here is obliterated. And the criminals, like
any hate group, attempting to make canoes and kayaks as deadly as
possible, are punished.

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

is only the beginning of an internet based class action legal suit.

We sell cars by safety. In fact all consumer goods must be as safe as
possible. This (RBP) is the only exeption in the US and Canada for
many years.

History and thousands of psychology experiments tell us that bullies
and killers will take advantage of any laxity. They are perfectly
willing to take a few dollars and "blame the victims for killing
themselves". Bait and Switch frauds, sold by the ACA are very common,
effective, and in this unique case, more deadly than bin Laden's
network since Sept 11, by about 200%.

Thanks for your considerate question.

Tim

Matt Langenfeld wrote in message hlink.net...


let's just say there's different opinion and let it go at that. Is the
last word that important?

Tim Ingram wrote:



Dear Mike:

You are exactly the kind of person who would try to sell rolls and
other deadly ideas to Girl Guides apparently. You would not want them
to have any chance to live.

Is it any wonder US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have
by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42)
as any other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering
the death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar
time frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily,
and only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

Or: "Looking at the first six months of each year, the number of
kayaks sold has decreased 50 percent from 12,502 in 2001 to 6,216 in
2003." (Paddler, Jan/Feb 2004, p.8, published by the ACA.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

You are not only hurting sales of canoes and kayaks, you are hurting
scouts and girl guides. What have they done to hurt you?

Please have respect for the value of human life.

And don't be verbally abusive below. It just makes you look mean to
everyone.

Tim

PS:

For more understanding:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html





MikeSoja wrote in message . ..




(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...








Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?




If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja

On Internet Explorer:

1. Type USCG hit Search
2. Click on Office of Boating Safety
3. Left of page "News", "Statistics"
4. Download the Accident Statistics for each year. Read the NBSAC Minutes.
You must read the website thoroughly or you will see nothing.

Reference:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Tim

Matt Langenfeld wrote in message hlink.net...
I reviewed you site and tried a search for the Coast Guard info you
mentioned outside your site with no luck.

Can you provide some links to this inofrmation other than to your web site?



Tim Ingram wrote:

Dear Matt:

You must understand that this is a large issue involving the easily
preventable deaths of innocent citizens. I make this clear in

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

I am an old scoutmaster and YMCA counsellor. Also, I have given my
word to parents of dead kids that I shall continue to do my best that
the sick "safety" culture here is obliterated. And the criminals, like
any hate group, attempting to make canoes and kayaks as deadly as
possible, are punished.

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

is only the beginning of an internet based class action legal suit.

We sell cars by safety. In fact all consumer goods must be as safe as
possible. This (RBP) is the only exeption in the US and Canada for
many years.

History and thousands of psychology experiments tell us that bullies
and killers will take advantage of any laxity. They are perfectly
willing to take a few dollars and "blame the victims for killing
themselves". Bait and Switch frauds, sold by the ACA are very common,
effective, and in this unique case, more deadly than bin Laden's
network since Sept 11, by about 200%.

Thanks for your considerate question.

Tim

Matt Langenfeld wrote in message hlink.net...


let's just say there's different opinion and let it go at that. Is the
last word that important?

Tim Ingram wrote:



Dear Mike:

You are exactly the kind of person who would try to sell rolls and
other deadly ideas to Girl Guides apparently. You would not want them
to have any chance to live.

Is it any wonder US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have
by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42)
as any other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering
the death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar
time frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily,
and only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

Or: "Looking at the first six months of each year, the number of
kayaks sold has decreased 50 percent from 12,502 in 2001 to 6,216 in
2003." (Paddler, Jan/Feb 2004, p.8, published by the ACA.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

You are not only hurting sales of canoes and kayaks, you are hurting
scouts and girl guides. What have they done to hurt you?

Please have respect for the value of human life.

And don't be verbally abusive below. It just makes you look mean to
everyone.

Tim

PS:

For more understanding:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html





MikeSoja wrote in message . ..




(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...








Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?




If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja

Tim Ingram wrote:
On Internet Explorer:

1. Type USCG hit Search
2. Click on Office of Boating Safety
3. Left of page "News", "Statistics"
4. Download the Accident Statistics for each year. Read the NBSAC Minutes.
You must read the website thoroughly or you will see nothing.

In typical Timmah style, he's glommed onto a couple of insignficant
paragraphs and has tried to make a big deal out of it. Here's the text
from the meeting minutes:

"Mr. Tsuneyoshi had an observation then a question. He observed that on
a normal cycle, they get one to three paddle fatalities but after a hard
rain or spring thaw, that number jumps to six or eight, making it a
behavioral problem. Secondly, when you have a 3 percent injury rate, he
said, you need to collect accurate data so when you go to the hospital
they know that it is a paddling injury. He then asked where the ACA
stood on automatic inflating sponsons for canoes.

Mr. Yeager responded that it was a debate over sponsons. He said that
the ACA did not have an official position on the issue, but that there
were some applications where it would be appropriate. He added that it
was something that needed to be looked at closer to make sure there is
no downside to it affecting maneuverability. He compared the device to
training wheels, which serve a purpose to a certain extent. He said that
this was an issue being pushed by the private industry.

Mr. Shepard then brought up committee discussions on canoe and kayak
sponsons and stated Mr. Phil Cappel advised that research for the
effectiveness of sponsons of canoes and kayaks be developed. A short
discussion followed and on its possible effectiveness, but no further
action was taken on that item."

In other words, the subject was raised, but not seriously considered.
What's important to note is that "the ACA did not have an official
position on the issue", contrary to Timmy's mindless rants. If you view
this information in the overal context of the meeting, it's
insignificant. The major emphasis relating to canoes and kayaks is in
getting canoeist and kayakers more engaged in learning safe boating
practices, such as wearing PFDs, being visible and abiding by USCG
boating regulations.

Notice how Brian and Rick want canoes and kayaks as dangerous as
possible.

Then they take money from the victims before they die. Then blame them
for their own deaths despite:

US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the
highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any
other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering the
death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar time
frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily, and
only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

For details of their scam, see:
Canoe and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies
Device to Save Victims (paste in address bar of browser if link
doesn't work http://www.1stBooks.com/bookview/16818)

Tim

Reference:
http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html





Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
Tim Ingram wrote:
On Internet Explorer:

1. Type USCG hit Search
2. Click on Office of Boating Safety
3. Left of page "News", "Statistics"
4. Download the Accident Statistics for each year. Read the NBSAC Minutes.
You must read the website thoroughly or you will see nothing.

In typical Timmah style, he's glommed onto a couple of insignficant
paragraphs and has tried to make a big deal out of it. Here's the text
from the meeting minutes:

"Mr. Tsuneyoshi had an observation then a question. He observed that on
a normal cycle, they get one to three paddle fatalities but after a hard
rain or spring thaw, that number jumps to six or eight, making it a
behavioral problem. Secondly, when you have a 3 percent injury rate, he
said, you need to collect accurate data so when you go to the hospital
they know that it is a paddling injury. He then asked where the ACA
stood on automatic inflating sponsons for canoes.

Mr. Yeager responded that it was a debate over sponsons. He said that
the ACA did not have an official position on the issue, but that there
were some applications where it would be appropriate. He added that it
was something that needed to be looked at closer to make sure there is
no downside to it affecting maneuverability. He compared the device to
training wheels, which serve a purpose to a certain extent. He said that
this was an issue being pushed by the private industry.

Mr. Shepard then brought up committee discussions on canoe and kayak
sponsons and stated Mr. Phil Cappel advised that research for the
effectiveness of sponsons of canoes and kayaks be developed. A short
discussion followed and on its possible effectiveness, but no further
action was taken on that item."

In other words, the subject was raised, but not seriously considered.
What's important to note is that "the ACA did not have an official
position on the issue", contrary to Timmy's mindless rants. If you view
this information in the overal context of the meeting, it's
insignificant. The major emphasis relating to canoes and kayaks is in
getting canoeist and kayakers more engaged in learning safe boating
practices, such as wearing PFDs, being visible and abiding by USCG
boating regulations.

"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
...
Notice how Brian and Rick want canoes and kayaks as dangerous as
possible.

Then they take money from the victims before they die. Then blame them
for their own deaths despite:


Hey, Brian,

That's my money! Give it back, will you.

US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the
highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any
other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering the
death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar time
frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily, and
only 200 deaths.)


Notices how Tim uses aggragate data to foster a mistaken belief that canoes
and kayaks are dangerous. The number of sea kayak deaths, canoe deaths, and
white water boating deaths are very different. Sea kayaks, for example have
a considerably lower rate of injury/fatality than either of the other boats,
but for these are not separated in his statement. Sponsons have no practical
use (self-inflating, or not) on ww boating. Even Tim had to concede this
during the previous sponson wars. Of course, WW boating (kayaks and canoes)
are where the majority of deaths occur. If you remove all ww boating deaths
(which are the result of people intentionally seeking more dangerous
conditions where sponsons cannot be used), the statistics look very
different.

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)


You've said this thousands of times. We've heard you, read your invalid
data, and find you annoyingly stupid. You can go away now.

Rick

Rick wrote:
"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
...

Notice how Brian and Rick want canoes and kayaks as dangerous as
possible.

Then they take money from the victims before they die. Then blame them
for their own deaths despite:



Hey, Brian,

That's my money! Give it back, will you.

What money? Contrary to Timmah's erroneous assumptions, I don't get paid
to teach paddling skills and I don't sell boats or gear. Our club
provides a lot of free training and safety information to it's members
and to the public. It's our way of promoting safe, responsible paddling
in the area. We work with the CG, local harbormasters and local
businesses and they're pleased with what we do. The CG in the northeast
region has praised paddlers in the area for their safety consciousness
and high rate of PFD use. The reason for this is strong clubs and
guiding organizations that work to educate the paddling public. The
death rate among sea kayaker here is very low, despite cold water, high
boat traffic and often inhospitable shorelines.

As for Timmah, don't even try to reason with him. It's a complete waste
of time, as safety is NOT his motivation. He's a money-grubbing whackjob
that will stoop to any level to make a buck. He has no interest in
safety, just in lining his pockets. When shown the errors of his ways,
he simply reverts to repeating the same old lies, ad nauseum.

....stuff deleted

What money? Contrary to Timmah's erroneous assumptions, I don't get paid
to teach paddling skills and I don't sell boats or gear. Our club
provides a lot of free training and safety information to it's members
and to the public. It's our way of promoting safe, responsible paddling
in the area.

Shucks, and I thought I was missing something. By the way, BASK and other
clubs out here in the west offer the same services, so for those of you
wishing to develop or improve skills, clubs offer some valuable (and low
cost) options.

We work with the CG, local harbormasters and local
businesses and they're pleased with what we do. The CG in the northeast
region has praised paddlers in the area for their safety consciousness
and high rate of PFD use. The reason for this is strong clubs and
guiding organizations that work to educate the paddling public. The
death rate among sea kayaker here is very low, despite cold water, high
boat traffic and often inhospitable shorelines.


The death rate among sea kayakers is typically very low. Each year, sea
kayaker reports a handful along with a number of near misses. In most of
these, the problem was not a lack of sponsons, but a lack of preparation for
immersion (cited in virtually all of these events).

As for Timmah, don't even try to reason with him. It's a complete waste
of time, as safety is NOT his motivation. He's a money-grubbing whackjob
that will stoop to any level to make a buck. He has no interest in
safety, just in lining his pockets. When shown the errors of his ways,
he simply reverts to repeating the same old lies, ad nauseum.


I've stopped trying to reason and have resorted to making fun of him. He is
such an easy target. Besides, I enjoy his (sarcasm alert) brilliant email
responses (end alert), complete with expletatives and childish ranting.

Rick