Dear PaddleWreck:

This is a study, and I use responses like yours to investigate the
psychology of making canoes and kayaks as dangerous as possible.

The US Coast Guard BARD stats show that almost all dead victims (about
a hundred yearly) with a range of 115 to 78 over the past 5 years,
struggle on the surface for variable times, they don't sink
immediately without a PFD. (See lifesaving stations on most city
waterfronts. Most people are not wearing a PFD for a stroll, and the
world lifesaving standard is some buoyant device, like a canoe with
"automatic inflating sponsons.") There are some years when many more
dead are wearing PFDs (2000)and other years (1999) when there are
fewer dead but more of these dead are not wearing PFDs.

The interesting thing is how easily canoes and kayaks can be made
extremely safe. Safer than any other craft in fact; since sponsons are
used by RESCUE PROFESSIONALS for Rescue Devices used in tricky water
and ice rescues. But a canoe as shown in

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Or just Google "us coast guard canoe kayak safety" for the page,

has far more speed, mobility and capacity, demonstrated by 2 little
girls, 7 and 10.

Now PaddleWreck, you want to make kids as unsafe as possible, and
anyone else, apparently. Of course the World Champs at the Annual
Greenland Rolling Championships use a busy powerboat to rescue all the
champs who miss their roll. (Of course they miss their paddlefloat too
since almost all propaganda says rolls are more reliable than
paddlefloats! Check the book link above too: "Canoe and Kayak Scam
Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to Save Victims"
This "bait and switch" scam, killing 1000 Americans in a decade, is
circular and obvious: There is always a "Back-up" to the "deadly
rescue" that just failed, the "deadly rescue" was supposed to be the
back-up for the "back-up.") Easy to kill people!

US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the
highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any
other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering the
death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar time
frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily, and
only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated in the above link: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding
instruction that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however,
plentiful arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

Tim


(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...
Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?

Dan Valleskey wrote:

That S.O.B. has damned near killed off this group as it is. And now
he is back. Ya, I want his home address and phone. I may even go
pay him a visit in person.

-Dan V.
snip

Don't make threats, it is not appropriate in any civilized discussion.
Better to just ignore him or get a News reader that supports a Bozo
list.


--
Gordon Niessen
If you aren't on the bleeding edge, you are history.

That S.O.B. has damned near killed off this group as it is. And now he is
back. Ya, I want his home address and phone. I may even go pay him a
visit in person.

-Dan V.


(Tim Ingram) wrote in
:

Dear PaddleWreck:

This is a study, and I use responses like yours to investigate the
psychology of making canoes and kayaks as dangerous as possible.


snipped the bull ****.....


perspective."

Tim


(Paddlec1) wrote in message
...
Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And
does someone still have it?

(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...

Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?

If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja

Hey, Tim Boy,

You're going at this at the wrong end. You should try to sell lovely sponson
accessories for personal wear at home, at work, AND at play. Then when the
built-in sensors detect moisture, bingo, the accessories inflate and the
wearer is safe from drowning, if not appalling bad taste. Maybe, for ladies,
the sponsons could be made part of the bra. For gentlemen - well, maybe it's
better not to go there - considering the center of gravity problems.

Anyway, look into expanding your accessories line. There's just not that
many canoes. Style is what you want to emphasize. Thats where the money is.

Yours, for bigger and better marketing,

John Q

"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
. ..
Dear PaddleWreck:

This is a study, and I use responses like yours to investigate the
psychology of making canoes and kayaks as dangerous as possible.

The US Coast Guard BARD stats show that almost all dead victims (about
a hundred yearly) with a range of 115 to 78 over the past 5 years,
struggle on the surface for variable times, they don't sink
immediately without a PFD. (See lifesaving stations on most city
waterfronts. Most people are not wearing a PFD for a stroll, and the
world lifesaving standard is some buoyant device, like a canoe with
"automatic inflating sponsons.") There are some years when many more
dead are wearing PFDs (2000)and other years (1999) when there are
fewer dead but more of these dead are not wearing PFDs.

The interesting thing is how easily canoes and kayaks can be made
extremely safe. Safer than any other craft in fact; since sponsons are
used by RESCUE PROFESSIONALS for Rescue Devices used in tricky water
and ice rescues. But a canoe as shown in

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Or just Google "us coast guard canoe kayak safety" for the page,

has far more speed, mobility and capacity, demonstrated by 2 little
girls, 7 and 10.

Now PaddleWreck, you want to make kids as unsafe as possible, and
anyone else, apparently. Of course the World Champs at the Annual
Greenland Rolling Championships use a busy powerboat to rescue all the
champs who miss their roll. (Of course they miss their paddlefloat too
since almost all propaganda says rolls are more reliable than
paddlefloats! Check the book link above too: "Canoe and Kayak Scam
Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to Save Victims"
This "bait and switch" scam, killing 1000 Americans in a decade, is
circular and obvious: There is always a "Back-up" to the "deadly
rescue" that just failed, the "deadly rescue" was supposed to be the
back-up for the "back-up.") Easy to kill people!

US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the
highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any
other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering the
death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar time
frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily, and
only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated in the above link: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding
instruction that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however,
plentiful arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

Tim


(Paddlec1) wrote in message
...
Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And
does
someone still have it?

Dear Mike:

You are exactly the kind of person who would try to sell rolls and
other deadly ideas to Girl Guides apparently. You would not want them
to have any chance to live.

Is it any wonder US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have
by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42)
as any other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering
the death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar
time frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily,
and only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

Or: "Looking at the first six months of each year, the number of
kayaks sold has decreased 50 percent from 12,502 in 2001 to 6,216 in
2003." (Paddler, Jan/Feb 2004, p.8, published by the ACA.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

You are not only hurting sales of canoes and kayaks, you are hurting
scouts and girl guides. What have they done to hurt you?

Please have respect for the value of human life.

And don't be verbally abusive below. It just makes you look mean to
everyone.

Tim

PS:

For more understanding:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html





MikeSoja wrote in message . ..
(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...

Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?

If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja

MikeSoja wrote in
:


(Paddlec1) wrote in message
...

Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And
does someone still have it?

If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja


Via Canada411.com

Ingram, Tim
231 Gordon Dr
Penetanguishene, ON
L9M 1Y2
(705) 549-3722

MikeSoja wrote:

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:


Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:
http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise
and
http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.
Their apparent abuse address is:
and their Acceptable Use Policy is at: http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/
Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

Aside from frequent posting (not all that much more than some people I
could mention), why do you call Tim a spammer? A**hole, perhaps, but
just because you don't like his ideas on safety, that doesn't make them
spam. He does not sell anything in the group, AFAICS, just gives his web
address. If we didn't already know he sells the things, nothing I've
seen in r.b.p would tell me he has a financial stake.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

You got that right. Please don't feed the sick puppy.

--
Yours for accuracy in comdemnations,

Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:17:05 -0500, Steve Cramer
posted:

snip

Aside from frequent posting (not all that much more than some people I
could mention), why do you call Tim a spammer? A**hole, perhaps, but
just because you don't like his ideas on safety, that doesn't make them
spam. He does not sell anything in the group, AFAICS, just gives his web
address. If we didn't already know he sells the things, nothing I've
seen in r.b.p would tell me he has a financial stake.

And yet he does have a financial stake, and when all else is said
and done, his only reason for being here is to drum up business for
his product. Otherwise he could say what he has to say once, and be
done with it.

I really don't want to talk about him. I like to think I had a hand
in getting rid of him last time and will work quietly to do the same
this time.

The group has been very enjoyable in the nearly three years he was
gone.

Mike Soja

let's just say there's different opinion and let it go at that. Is the
last word that important?

Tim Ingram wrote:

Dear Mike:

You are exactly the kind of person who would try to sell rolls and
other deadly ideas to Girl Guides apparently. You would not want them
to have any chance to live.

Is it any wonder US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have
by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42)
as any other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering
the death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar
time frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily,
and only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

Or: "Looking at the first six months of each year, the number of
kayaks sold has decreased 50 percent from 12,502 in 2001 to 6,216 in
2003." (Paddler, Jan/Feb 2004, p.8, published by the ACA.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

You are not only hurting sales of canoes and kayaks, you are hurting
scouts and girl guides. What have they done to hurt you?

Please have respect for the value of human life.

And don't be verbally abusive below. It just makes you look mean to
everyone.

Tim

PS:

For more understanding:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html





MikeSoja wrote in message . ..


(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...





Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?


If you want his real world address you'll most likely have to use
real world methods to locate it (unless the address on his web page
is accurate. ;-)

His e-addresses have all changed since May 2001, when his mentally
challenged virtual person was last removed from these groups. He
doesn't seem to have gotten any smarter in the last three years.

First up: Presently, he's posting through Google-Groups, and they
take a dim view of obnoxious spamming.

Complaints should be sent to:



Be sure to include his full headers, and you might make reference
to:

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...html#advertise

and

http://groups.google.com/googlegroup...ing_terms.html

Second: He's dialing up via a Canadian branch of MCI, and they too
take a dim view of ignorant spammers. In fact, about the only rule
they have concerns Spam.

Their apparent abuse address is:



and their Acceptable Use Policy is at:

http://global.mci.com/ca/aup/

Again, send complete headers in every complaint.

His websites are being hosted by other providers, but showing abuse
there gets a little more involved.

With some spammers and trolls the best thing to do is killfile them,
but past experience with Timmy shows that he only grows more
long-windedly obnoxious (if you can believe it), until his account
is terminated. Still, the less one speaks to him, or of him, or of
sponsons, the better.

Happy paddling!

Mike Soja