Gosh Tim,

Guess you haven't done much kayaking and canoeing. The hazards of kayaking
and canoeing depend heavily upon the recent rainfall. A Class 2 run, like on
the Main Eel in CA, can quickly become a heavy water Class 4 run overnight
with 20-30 foot standing waves. What happens to small friendly creeks in
hard rains is mindboggling. And not infrequently requires a minor miracle by
a brave companion for rescue.

Sponsons don't even begin to address the problems. A kayak whose sprayskirt
has popped in such circumstances becomes an unmanueverable log, best left to
its own devices by anyone who wants to survive to recover the kayak later -
pushed ashore by a hardworking companion farther downriver. Canoing in big
water is just plain crazy.

Kayaking is believed to be the second-most dangerous sport after vertical
rock climbing. (Only God knows where to rate the crazy snowboarders.) After
10 years of kayaking, 50 weekends (100 days) per year, I was amazed that we
had had no deaths in our groups. I tended to thank the river gods often for
being so forgiving of our reckless behavior.

I'm sure that you have a garage-full of useless sponsons that you would like
to palm off on some naive boaters. Curse you - for you will probably make
them feel safer than they should. Your useless gadget will cause more deaths
than it will prevent.

John Adams


"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
...
Dear Mike:

You are exactly the kind of person who would try to sell rolls and
other deadly ideas to Girl Guides apparently. You would not want them
to have any chance to live.

Is it any wonder US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have
by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42)
as any other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering
the death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar
time frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily,
and only 200 deaths.)

Vast snip!!

Gordon Niessen wrote:

Don't make threats, it is not appropriate in any civilized discussion.

While I agree with your sentiment, since when is any discussion
involving that whackjob Timmy civilized?

I've told you guys. Now the beast has woken!

Tim Ingram wrote:
Dear PaddleWreck:

This is a study, and I use responses like yours to investigate the
psychology of making canoes and kayaks as dangerous as possible.

The US Coast Guard BARD stats show that almost all dead victims (about
a hundred yearly) with a range of 115 to 78 over the past 5 years,
struggle on the surface for variable times, they don't sink
immediately without a PFD. (See lifesaving stations on most city
waterfronts. Most people are not wearing a PFD for a stroll, and the
world lifesaving standard is some buoyant device, like a canoe with
"automatic inflating sponsons.") There are some years when many more
dead are wearing PFDs (2000)and other years (1999) when there are
fewer dead but more of these dead are not wearing PFDs.

The interesting thing is how easily canoes and kayaks can be made
extremely safe. Safer than any other craft in fact; since sponsons are
used by RESCUE PROFESSIONALS for Rescue Devices used in tricky water
and ice rescues. But a canoe as shown in

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Or just Google "us coast guard canoe kayak safety" for the page,

has far more speed, mobility and capacity, demonstrated by 2 little
girls, 7 and 10.

Now PaddleWreck, you want to make kids as unsafe as possible, and
anyone else, apparently. Of course the World Champs at the Annual
Greenland Rolling Championships use a busy powerboat to rescue all the
champs who miss their roll. (Of course they miss their paddlefloat too
since almost all propaganda says rolls are more reliable than
paddlefloats! Check the book link above too: "Canoe and Kayak Scam
Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to Save Victims"
This "bait and switch" scam, killing 1000 Americans in a decade, is
circular and obvious: There is always a "Back-up" to the "deadly
rescue" that just failed, the "deadly rescue" was supposed to be the
back-up for the "back-up.") Easy to kill people!

US Coast Guard report 071-01: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the
highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any
other boat type". (This figure may be far too low, considering the
death statistics of the Ford/Firestone scandal, over a similar time
frame, with many more vehicles, many, many more use/hours daily, and
only 200 deaths.)

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats."
(Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of
the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

The wider kayaks and "sit-on-tops", are by far the most popular types
of kayaks according to the National Marine Manufacturers Association,
over ten (10) times more popular than narrow or whitewater types,
(reflecting users' choices, who find narrower craft too unstable).
They are less deadly due to a wider beam. However if flooded, the
"recreational kayaks", unlike the equally popular "sit-on-tops", do
not have built-in sponsons. They cannot be pumped out due to the very
large cockpit opening. The victims die when they cannot get out of the
water (rate of body heat loss is 25 times the rate in air.) PFDs
cannot magically get them out. Furthermore, deaths indicate that the
"sit-on-top" types, that already have built-in sponsons, have
insufficient sponson buoyancy for most victims to rescue themselves
and not recapsize. (Sufficient sponson buoyancy is only possible
through "automatic inflating sponsons" on the USCG website.)

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated in the above link: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding
instruction that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however,
plentiful arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

Tim


(Paddlec1) wrote in message ...

Who was it that posted Timmy's address last time he came around? And does
someone still have it?

lcopps wrote:
I've told you guys. Now the beast has woken!

Two things:

1) Don't give him credit by calling him a "beast". He's just an idiot.

2) You can dramatically reduce the waste of bandwidth by not quoting his
diatribe.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Gordon Niessen wrote:

Don't make threats, it is not appropriate in any civilized discussion.

While I agree with your sentiment, since when is any discussion
involving that whackjob Timmy civilized?

You are mistaken, sir! There is no such thing as a 'discussion' with the
sick puppy. There is only feeding the sick puppy, and having it puke all
over you.

The best civilized course of action is to not feed the sick puppy. Please!

John Kuthe...

Well Brian, you did not answer the question several months ago:

"Do you prefer murdering boy scouts or girl guides?"

This is the effect of your paddlefloat, roll etc. stupidity. What do
you have to lose if all canoes and kayaks are much safer? It is easy
to make them much safer.

You lose being a moron who instructs people in losing their lives,
with instruction that most sane people reject anyway.

Coward, Murderer (why not try to take me to court) if you are not?

See:

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Tim



Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
back40 wrote:

Gawd, if I'd known this would stir up such a hornet's nest....

Well, you didn't know, so don't sweat it. The subject comes up every so
often, Timmy goes on a rant, his ISP eventually pulls the plug due to
the deluge of complaints, then things get back to normal.

Anyway, with such a disparity of opinion (not uncommon these days!) I
think it best if I find out for myself. Your boat fender suggestion is
ingenious, and I just happen to have a few, so, when the water warms
up this summer, we'll do some some capsizing and testing, using the
(inflated)fenders as sponsosn, and as a paddle float, and we'll see
which seems to work better for me.

Before you trust any such system, be sure to test it in rough water. If
there's any small surf available, try it there. What you'll find is that
adding floatation to the sides of a kayak makes it more likely to be
flipped by steep water.



Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
lcopps wrote:
I've told you guys. Now the beast has woken!

Two things:

1) Don't give him credit by calling him a "beast". He's just an idiot.

2) You can dramatically reduce the waste of bandwidth by not quoting his
diatribe.

Tim Ingram wrote:

[nothing but sick puppy puke]

See?

John Kuthe...

The US Coast Guard website now contains minutes from the National
Boating Safety Advisory Council
regarding "automatic inflating sponsons" to rescue any canoe or kayak,
April and October 2002. About 200 US deaths ago.

A canoe or kayak without sponsons has no safety and no rescue means.
Misleading, deadly, and fraudulent rescues cannot depend on practice.
Rescue and safety must simply work, like seatbelts in cars.

No rescue, no safety for any canoe or kayak (even wearing a PFD, if
the rescue is not timely.)

These "automatic inflating", $50, CO2 Rescue Life Raft Sponsons Cannot
be Marketed Now in the Industry Climate, Sponsored by the US Coast
Guard, Despite the USCG Website.

Note that these "automatic inflating" CO2 gas Sponsons are much larger
(80 lbs. buoyancy, 5 second inflation, and back-up oral inflation).
They are stowed in 2 tiny containers, A in above diagram. These 1 lb.
containers are concealed at the gunwale lines of canoes and kayaks,
and are almost unnoticed, (except for the "EMERGENCY RESCUE" labels),
until capsize or other emergencies. All CO2 sponsons are manufactured
identically to Coast Guard approved PFDs.

But sponsons have a much simpler air bladder and container: A pair of
"automatic inflating sponsons" costs less than $50 US, installed at
the factory. A pair would retail at a price comparable to one
inflatable PFD.

You create a superior lifesaving device that transforms any canoe or
kayak: Capable of saving any drowning victim in the water, not just
any paddler victims! Instead of being an "Accident Waiting to Happen",
any canoe or kayak becomes a superior rescue device! To rescue any
victim who has fallen in the water. Superior in use to any devices now
employed by Rescue Professionals!

This canoe has one sponson deliberately set higher, to ensure maximum
flooding (about 3,000 lbs.). The 7 and 10 year old girls paddle this
canoe at about 2 knots, and can pick up victims in the water from at
least 2 other canoes, like any Life Raft. Set the one sponson properly
(lower), and the canoe is almost entirely self-bailing, by leaning on
one sponson!

This canoe is nearly 18 feet long and weighs 46 lbs. due to carbon
fibre etc. It cost about $1000 US used, at time of purchase (year
2000), after many brutal years as a rental canoe. It will live longer
than me or you. I bought it after my "guide" friend persisted for
several years that I needed it. He was right.

Canoes are remarkable craft. They are the simplest form of watercraft,
and with properly-sized sponsons they are remarkably safe. Safe enough
to be superior in all respects to Professional water and ice rescue
devices (that use sponson technology to safely rescue any victims!)
Kayaks work similarly, but they lack the greater capacity in rescues
of any victims who find themselves in the water.

Now, why would the American Canoe Association (ACA) not try to raise
canoe and kayak sales through rescue and safety applications? They
have deprived 1000 dead Americans (and about 500 dead Canadians) of
their lives since 1993, when all major authors and magazines
recommended sponsons!

This kayaker can wash his hair. These canoes and kayaks normally
inflate CO2 Sponsons while righted but fully flooded, as in capsizing
conditions. However, if upside-down, a sponson, having only 80 lbs.
buoyancy, is easily sunk by 2 little kids or one adult: Self-righting
the canoe or kayak in seconds. The flooded interior makes re-entry
much easier for victims: Much Lower In The Water. And creates powerful
neutral buoyancy ballast, that makes canoes and kayaks more stable
than with sponsons alone.

The heavy canoes and kayaks are then almost invulnerable to capsizing
waves and winds! (Paddled fully flooded over many miles of breaking
seas.)

Lifesaving Scandal

There is simply no equivalent in the 20th century or the 19th century
regarding this extremely high death rate. Death Rates one could only
expect through deliberate anti-safety and anti-social policies.
Compa 11,000 British sailors dead in overloaded and heavily insured
ships 1879-1899, in the largest merchant marine in the world. This is
1 sailor in 60 dying violently in water; in mining, same period, 1
dead miner in 315, both over a lifetime of exposure. Good thing that
canoes and kayaks are a small and declining US industry! And that
people don't canoe and kayak very often, since drowning deaths,
despite PFDs are far, far greater than for any other boat type!

In Canada, the death rate is much higher than the US, thanks to the
Canadian Coast Guard covering up a study by a Canadian Search and
Rescue Officer who found exactly the same sponson safety reported by
the US Military Special Forces Kayaking Study (10th Airborne) in 1994.
Result: About 500 Canadian canoe and kayak deaths.

This study and others will stand with "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and Milgram's studies at Yale, regarding the darker aspects of
humanity. You simply have no other instances of such a high death
rate, easily remedied, by such a small "murder cult". I repeat what I
stated above: "There is plenty of "macho" ego, regarding instruction
that no judge or jury can accomplish. There are however, plentiful
arguments that the victims deserved to die, as a Darwinian
perspective."

These little girls can quickly rescue a half dozen adults from the
water, since the adults weigh just about the same as their immersed
volume in water. This canoe cannot sink totally flooded! Police and
other RESCUE PROFESSIONALS use sponsons to create devices that are
smaller and less mobile, to rescue victims in tricky water and ice
rescues. Canoes are superior rescue craft with proper self-rescue
sponsons: Paddled easily at 2 knots fully flooded, by 2 kids standing
up. Set the far sponson in the above picture properly (lower), and the
canoe is almost entirely self-bailing by leaning on one sponson!

Canoes (and kayaks too), can save many lives, not just kill! Why kill
1000 US citizens in 10 years? Who gains from those cruel and easily
preventable deaths?

http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

Tim


Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
lcopps wrote:
I've told you guys. Now the beast has woken!

Two things:

1) Don't give him credit by calling him a "beast". He's just an idiot.

2) You can dramatically reduce the waste of bandwidth by not quoting his
diatribe.

John Kuthe wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Gordon Niessen wrote:

Don't make threats, it is not appropriate in any civilized discussion.

While I agree with your sentiment, since when is any discussion
involving that whackjob Timmy civilized?

You are mistaken, sir! There is no such thing as a 'discussion' with the
sick puppy. There is only feeding the sick puppy, and having it puke all
over you.

Good point. I thought I smelled something truly foul...

Tim Ingram wrote:

Well Brian, you did not answer the question several months ago:

"Do you prefer murdering boy scouts or girl guides?"

I'll answer that right after you tell me when you stopped beating your
wife and molesting your kids.

Live by the sword, die by the sword, Timbo.

This is the effect of your paddlefloat, roll etc. stupidity. What do
you have to lose if all canoes and kayaks are much safer? It is easy
to make them much safer.

No, it's easy to make paddlers safer though education. Your pool toys
offer nothing but an illusion of safety, that will get people killed if
they choose to rely on them in lieu of learning how to paddle safely and
responsibly. I guess that make you a murderer too, doesn't it?

You lose being a moron who instructs people in losing their lives,
with instruction that most sane people reject anyway.

Funny thing Tim, paddlers are clammoring for training and grateful to
receive it. No one has died from any skills that I or any instructors I
know have taught them. Rather, they've become safer paddlers. Several
have rescued others who unfortunately relied on the wide boats that you
claim are so much safer, rather than learning how to paddle. Skills save
lives. You know that, but choose to ignore it, since you can't make any
money on it.

Coward, Murderer (why not try to take me to court) if you are not?

As I've said before, you're obviously a lying, money-grubbing,
dead-child-exploiting lunatic who's only intent is to scare people into
buying your worthless junk in order to line your pockets. I haven't seen
any court papers from you, either. What's the matter, aren't you
interested in protecting the reputation of your product?

Keep it up, Timmah. The more you rant, the less credibility you have. I
just love watching you shoot yourself in the foot. Got any toes left?