More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
exeed US vehicle deaths.

In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
citizens.

They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
brothers and sisters.

The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
Coast Guard.

Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
self-rescue are extremely deadly.

Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818)

Tim

Reference: http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

....stuff deleted
The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
Coast Guard.


This coming from the individual who sent me the following brilliant email in
which he shows his true colors.

From: "R. Tim Ingram"
To: "Rick"
Subject: Anyone using Sponsons?
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:54:39 -0500

At least you were not someone's child asshole.

Not that this statement makes any more sense than the drivel he usually
posts, but I feel that since he feels that the quality of one's character
reflects on the role of newsgroups, I feel his should be on public display.

Rick

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
...
....As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
citizens...

Take it to the courts, then. You could make a lot more money and do a lot
more social good from a class-action suit than by trying to sell your
product to an unwilling audience.

--riverman

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Dear Larry, Brian, Rick and Himmler:

We see your confirmation today that you will lie (even include rafts
to wildly distort USCG stats), to leave people dead in the water
wearing PFDs or not.

You will kill for little money, or none at all.

Regarding rafts: Canoes and kayaks can be very good life rafts as my
links below describe.

Why not sell canoes and kayaks by safety. Not as much fun as killing I
suppose.

Your pathetic little newsgroup is only useful as a source for this
study into the murder of US citizens, including kids.

Tim


(Tim Ingram) wrote in message m...
See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
exeed US vehicle deaths.

In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
citizens.

They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
brothers and sisters.

The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
Coast Guard.

Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
self-rescue are extremely deadly.

Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818)

Tim

Reference: http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

Tim,

What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes out
during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

Matt Langenfeld wrote:

Tim,

What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes out
during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?

Where did you get that impression?
I used Tim's original Sea Wing sponsons in a sea kayak symposium rescue
class over 10 years ago. Only some attachment clips were pre-installed on
the kayak. We deliberately capsized/exited and then attached the sponsons
and inflated them. Then we reentered, pumped out the cockpit, and finally
deflated and removed the sponsons. The process was pretty similar to the
use of paddlefloats which were also used in the class along with assorted
types of assisted rescue.
Seems that what he's promoting more recently to the Coast Guard is the
auto-inflate type of device (the ones I used were only manually inflated).

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

looking at his website, I see some plastic ones attached to a surf rider.

Peter wrote:

Matt Langenfeld wrote:

Tim,

What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes
out during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?


Where did you get that impression?
I used Tim's original Sea Wing sponsons in a sea kayak symposium
rescue class over 10 years ago. Only some attachment clips were
pre-installed on the kayak. We deliberately capsized/exited and then
attached the sponsons and inflated them. Then we reentered, pumped
out the cockpit, and finally deflated and removed the sponsons. The
process was pretty similar to the use of paddlefloats which were also
used in the class along with assorted types of assisted rescue.
Seems that what he's promoting more recently to the Coast Guard is the
auto-inflate type of device (the ones I used were only manually
inflated).

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

Matt Langenfeld wrote:

looking at his website, I see some plastic ones attached to a surf rider.

Just looked there and don't see what you're referring to. There's a
picture of a sit-on-top with flared hull shape with a caption that says it
has built-in 'sponsons' and several pictures of kayaks with the inflatable
yellow nylon Sea Wing sponsons; plus some of a canoe with larger inflatable
sponsons. Here's the ordering information:
"Sea Wings Sponsons
All sponsons are 40" X 6" in diameter for any kayak, double or single, due
to relative buoyancy leverage, regardless of kayak size. All necessary
hardware, straps, instructions etc. included with each pair. They inflate
in 6 puffs each.
They roll up together and stow compactly, 8" X 3" in diameter. The 200
denier are each under half a pound. The 400 (twice the thickness of the
nylon, double the resistance to abrasion), weigh only 3 ounces more than
the 200.

In US Dollars: (Including Expresspost and Insurance) Type of Material
Color Cost Expresspost
200 Nylon/Urethane Deep Yellow $98 $8= $106 US total
400 Nylon/Urethane Deep Blue $119 $8= $127 US total"

The lighter yellow ones look just like what I remember using at the sea
kayak symposium. I don't see any rigid plastic sponsons for sale at his site.

Peter wrote:

Matt Langenfeld wrote:

Tim,

What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes
out during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?



Where did you get that impression?
I used Tim's original Sea Wing sponsons in a sea kayak symposium
rescue class over 10 years ago. Only some attachment clips were
pre-installed on the kayak. We deliberately capsized/exited and then
attached the sponsons and inflated them. Then we reentered, pumped
out the cockpit, and finally deflated and removed the sponsons. The
process was pretty similar to the use of paddlefloats which were also
used in the class along with assorted types of assisted rescue.
Seems that what he's promoting more recently to the Coast Guard is the
auto-inflate type of device (the ones I used were only manually
inflated).

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

Tim,

I don't visit this group often, and will admit to being a novice in the area
of water sports.

I have, however, been involved in sales/marketing for over 20 years. I
gotta tell, ya...you're killing yourself here. Even if your product had
everything to be the next "killer app", no one will buy it if your sales
approach is similar to your remarks in this thread.

Here's what I am hearing..."Hey guys, I have an absolutely fabulous product
that will save lives. Obviously you guys are pathetic, liars, and idiots
because you don't see how great my idea is." Man...that's a tough
sell...I've been thrown out of clients offices for far, far less than that.

Perhaps a new approach is in order. Might be worth thinking about.

G. Evans

"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
...
Dear Larry, Brian, Rick and Himmler:

We see your confirmation today that you will lie (even include rafts
to wildly distort USCG stats), to leave people dead in the water
wearing PFDs or not.

You will kill for little money, or none at all.

Regarding rafts: Canoes and kayaks can be very good life rafts as my
links below describe.

Why not sell canoes and kayaks by safety. Not as much fun as killing I
suppose.

Your pathetic little newsgroup is only useful as a source for this
study into the murder of US citizens, including kids.

Tim


(Tim Ingram) wrote in message
m...
See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
exeed US vehicle deaths.

In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
citizens.

They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
brothers and sisters.

The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
Coast Guard.

Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
self-rescue are extremely deadly.

Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818)

Tim

Reference: http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html

More info for the Dreaded Debate
 

Gotta agree.

Mr. Ingram takes an extraordinarily offensive approach, in trying to
publicisize what may well be an excellent product. Nothing I have seen
leads me to think favorably of him or his company.

Bug off, Tim. I have a lifetime in "water sports", 20+ years in sea kayaks,
and my 8 year old has been soloing in kayaks for 3 years. If I see a
similar product from a competitor, I will take a long, serious look. But I
will not do business with you.

Curtis (aka Sal's Dad)

"Greg Evans" wrote in message
...
Tim,

I don't visit this group often, and will admit to being a novice in the
area
of water sports.

I have, however, been involved in sales/marketing for over 20 years. I
gotta tell, ya...you're killing yourself here. Even if your product had
everything to be the next "killer app", no one will buy it if your sales
approach is similar to your remarks in this thread.

Here's what I am hearing..."Hey guys, I have an absolutely fabulous
product
that will save lives. Obviously you guys are pathetic, liars, and idiots
because you don't see how great my idea is." Man...that's a tough
sell...I've been thrown out of clients offices for far, far less than
that.

Perhaps a new approach is in order. Might be worth thinking about.

G. Evans

"Tim Ingram" wrote in message
...
Dear Larry, Brian, Rick and Himmler:

We see your confirmation today that you will lie (even include rafts
to wildly distort USCG stats), to leave people dead in the water
wearing PFDs or not.

You will kill for little money, or none at all.

Regarding rafts: Canoes and kayaks can be very good life rafts as my
links below describe.

Why not sell canoes and kayaks by safety. Not as much fun as killing I
suppose.

Your pathetic little newsgroup is only useful as a source for this
study into the murder of US citizens, including kids.

Tim


(Tim Ingram) wrote in message
m...
See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
exeed US vehicle deaths.

In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
citizens.

They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
brothers and sisters.

The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
Coast Guard.

Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
self-rescue are extremely deadly.

Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818)

Tim

Reference: http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html