Kayak's recomended!
 

I'm relatively new to kayaks. I have done mosly fla****er paddles of
at most 10 miles. I own a very light 28lb Kevlar Lincoln Chebegue
Kayak which is comfortable but not as responsive as I'd like. I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.
Eventually when my skills improve I intend to venture into coastal
waters . To those who have been at this longer with more experience I
ask which kayaks should I be looking at?

Thanks,
Gene

Kayak's recomended!
 

Since you're already familiar with Lincoln products, I suggest that you
check out the Isle Au Haut. It's a very nice, very seaworthy boat. It's
longer than your specified limit, but unless there's a specific need to
keep the boat that short, you shouldn't limit yourself.

Kayak's recomended!
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

I notice that no one mentions Wilderness Systems. Any reason?

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the
Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which
is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats
on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in news:6-
:

On 3-Apr-2004, "Alan Smith" wrote:

I notice that no one mentions Wilderness Systems. Any reason?

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

... WS Tempest,...

You can add the Arctic Hawk too. And Sparrow Hawk.

Except that the criteria was "Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler
and 16' with a skeg." The Hawks don't come equipped with a skeg, have a
smallish cockpit, and it would be quite a squeeze in the Sparrow Hawk for
someone 5'10", 175#. If something longer than 16'is acceptable a Seaward
Endeavor would fit all the other criteria.

Someone mentioned sticking with the Lincoln boats. The Isle a Haut and
Eggemoggin look like very nice boats but I've never paddled either so can't
really make an recommendation.


There are a lot of kayaks in that class.

BTW - I'd downplay the "twitchy" part. While some kayaks are
excessively low in initial stability without noticable benefits*,
others are easy to get used to and you quickly find them to be
quite stable. My Ellesmere felt that way at first and now it
feels rock solid.

That sounds like something that I would write except that the FR Rumour and
CD Slipstream do, IMHO, have excessively low initial stability. In the
Rumour especially I never felt comfortable sitting still unless I had a
paddle ready for a brace. Once it was moving it was a sweet boat to paddle
though.


*like CD Slipstream [w/ big paddler - seems fine for smaller folk]
and Andromeda.


"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

Good list but you forgot to mention...

Yeah, but I don't have your encyclopedic knowledge of specific
kayaks :-)

Okay, but IMHO, the VCP Avocet belongs on just about anyones list if they're
looking for a 16' sea kayak.

John mentioned the Vela - it's tippy for a big paddler too. The
OP isn't much different in size than me and probably wouldn't like
it. At 14' or so (IIRC) it ain't speedy either.

It's actually 15'8" and I didn't find it particulary tippy, at least not as
tippy as a Slipstream or Rumour. Perhaps it was because the secondary was
so good that I didn't feel the initial twitchiness was much of an issue.
It's certainly not speedy compared to a Hawk or your Ellesmere but for a
shorter boat I thought it was pretty quick. It's more of a play boat than a
touring boat.

Kayak's recomended!
 

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
Since you're already familiar with Lincoln products, I suggest that you
check out the Isle Au Haut. It's a very nice, very seaworthy boat. It's
longer than your specified limit, but unless there's a specific need to
keep the boat that short, you shouldn't limit yourself.

Thanks for the input. Actually 16' was not a limit as much as a
reflection of my lack of knowledge. I just assummed that the longer
the boat, particularly with no rocker, the less maneuverable. My other
criteria is light as possible. Longer boats tend to be heavier.

Gene

Kayak's recomended!
 

John Fereira wrote:

That sounds like something that I would write except that the FR Rumour and
CD Slipstream do, IMHO, have excessively low initial stability. In the
Rumour especially I never felt comfortable sitting still unless I had a
paddle ready for a brace. Once it was moving it was a sweet boat to paddle
though.

There's no comparison between these two boats. I find the Slipstream
comfortably stable, but my girlfriend's rumour is positively scary. Even
for someone her size (5'2", 115#) and quite skilled, it's a challenging
boat to paddle. She likes it, but comes home much more tired after
paddling it than with her other boats.

Kayak's recomended!
 

Gene Cosloy wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...

Since you're already familiar with Lincoln products, I suggest that you
check out the Isle Au Haut. It's a very nice, very seaworthy boat. It's
longer than your specified limit, but unless there's a specific need to
keep the boat that short, you shouldn't limit yourself.


Thanks for the input. Actually 16' was not a limit as much as a
reflection of my lack of knowledge. I just assummed that the longer
the boat, particularly with no rocker, the less maneuverable. My other
criteria is light as possible. Longer boats tend to be heavier.

Maneuverability is a function of design. There are some long boats that
are quite maneuverable. I would rate the Isle au Haut and moderately
maneuverable, that is, well balanced between maneuverability and tracking.

As you know, all the Lincoln boats are light weight.

Kayak's recomended!
 

John Fereira wrote in message ...
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Actually I have a good dealer in my area where I intend to try out: WS
Tempest, NF Legend, and CD Caribou and Gulfstream. The new Necky
Chatham won't be available until May. All they have is plastic which
I'm told does not perform the same as the composite version. Will
report back next week.

Gene

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

Kayak's recomended!
 

Kayak's recomended!
 

On 14-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

First I rejected a number of boats out of hand because I wasn't
comfortable with the cockpit. These boats were only sat in and not
demoed: Lincoln Isle au Haut and Eggmoggin both felt that the thigh
braces were pushing my legs down straighter than I would be
comfortable with over a long period of time.

Demo the kayaks and rent them for a weekend before making this decision.
(actually, rent before you buy _any_ kayak and make sure you test it
in realistic conditions - wind, waves, etc - before buying).

It may be that you'll find them comfortable. The seat is critical in
this case - if the seat provides good support, you'll be comfortable
regardless of leg position.

Only if you are sitting with the legs so straight that you are paddling
with tight hamstrings and such will the kayak always be uncomfortable.
In such a situation, stretching can help, but it shouldn't be that
tight.

A boat whose cockpit I did
not like but actually demoed anyway was the WS Tempest Pro. I liked
the way the boat handled in the water but felt both the Hip and thigh
braces constricting. ( I'm going back next week to try again with the
hip braces and thigh supports removed.)

This tells me that there's something wrong with your trials! This kayak
has one of the best cockpits out there. The seat is fully adjustable,
as are the thigh hooks. Try again, but get the dealer to set it up
for you. I would never consider a kayak without good thigh/knee braces
as removing them means losing some of your control on the kayak.

I'ts obvious to me that I like
a long or keyhole type of cockpit with a moderately high deck so that
my legs can have a decent amount of bend in them.)

I'll just point out that advanced paddlers tend to move in exactly the
opposite direction - to smaller cockpits with lower decks to get better
control. Again - it's the seat that makes the difference, not the
leg bend. A proper seat is more important than anything else.

Now to boats that
actually got wet and one that got me wet! CD Caribou S in glass: Wow
terrific hull speed, great initial stability even when tipping back
and forth on the primary chines. Great tracker and moderately
manuverable given that I wasn't willing to edge the boat more than
the first chine.

I know more than a few folks that consider this kayak a mediocre boat.
It does everything well, but nothing excellent. Nonetheless, those
who like it tend to love it.

Next the CD Gulfstream. Wow whats not to like: tracks great,
very stable but easy to go on edge and turn. Boat was too wide for me.
Would need to pack out the cockpit too get a close in feel.

Never dismiss a kayak because of the seat being too wide as it's easy
to add good padding. That padding can be shaped to provide even better
control than the basic seat provides.

Impex
Susquehanna:

Before you get excited about Impex and a few other similar kayaks,
push on the hull with your finger and compare that to other kayaks.
These are lightly built kayaks and that's why the price is lower.

a ND Romany Explorer. All I could tell was I liked it, into the wind
or with the wind behind me, turning, didn't seem to weather cock at
all, good hull speed,

The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best all-
round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere as well
if you like the Explorer.

So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists

Slipstream - but that may be tippy for someone your size. There's also
an Andromeda, but I found that to be a dreadful kayak.

Try the Skerray - I find it roughly similar to a Gulfstream based on a
short paddle. John F. will no doubt be able to point out the differences
much better than I. However, I think the Skerray is worth checking out
if you like the Gulfstream.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

Kayak's recomended!
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best all-
round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere as well
if you like the Explorer.

I've heard many compare the Ellsemere to the Caribou too. It has an
aggressively molded seat so if it fits the shape of your butt it's going to
be real comfortable.

So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists

Slipstream - but that may be tippy for someone your size. There's also
an Andromeda, but I found that to be a dreadful kayak.

At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda and
someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a mistake.

Try the Skerray - I find it roughly similar to a Gulfstream based on a
short paddle. John F. will no doubt be able to point out the differences
much better than I. However, I think the Skerray is worth checking out
if you like the Gulfstream.

Doh! Why didn't I think of the Skerray? Perhaps because mine has a Ocean
cockpit that I knew he wouldn't like. The Skerray likely would be a good
one to try. It's got real nice initial stability, is very responsive but a
bit faster than a Romany or Avocet. I've had mine for 6 years or so and
have since built two higher performance boats. Every once in awhile I think
about selling the Skerray but then I get in an paddle it and get reminded
how much fun that boat is to paddle.

Kayak's recomended!
 

Hey

John Fereira wrote:
At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda and
someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a mistake.

I'm curious. Could you give us some details on the problems with the
Andromeda? I've noticed that the boat has an exceptional large amount
of rocker. Perhaps that's what Hutchinson considers a romantic boat.

Paddler - Jan/Feb 2002:

Paddler: What's the best new technological innovation in the sport?

Hutchinson: There haven't really been any in the last ten years. It's
a shame about boat designs, though. A lot of the new boats are
functional - they'll all float - but they look like a bucket of
squashed frogs. It seems the designers have no romance in their soul
at all.

--
Peter Unold- http://www.unold.dk/paddling

Kayak's recomended!
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 14-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:


Impex
Susquehanna:

Before you get excited about Impex and a few other similar kayaks,
push on the hull with your finger and compare that to other kayaks.
These are lightly built kayaks and that's why the price is lower.



Hi Michael,

I'm curious about Impex kayaks. The Currituck and Assatigue are on my list
of boats to demo (I'm kind of on the fence between these two size-wise). It
would be a days drive to get to a dealer that has demos of these kayaks as
well as others I'm interested in. I have heard good feedback from Impex
owners and others that have tried them out. Have you heard or seen first
hand any failures of the deck layups by this manufacturer? I tend to follow
the old adage "if it doesn't bend a little, it will probably break". What
about the hulls? What's your impression of the layup there? Looking at the
prices on some dealer web sites, the Currituck is $2550 in glass. The
Caribou, Gulfstream, and Slipstream are $2595, The endeavor $2830 and the
Arctic Hawk is just $2200. That doesn't appear to me that the Impex model
is lower in price to the point that it would suggest that they are skimping
on material.

Many of the kayaks I'm interested in are right here in town but the Impex,
which look good in print are far away. I value your opinion so please let
me know if you have seen actual problems with these boats delaminating or
cracking. I'd like to save myself a dissapointing road trip if possible.

Thanks a bunch.

Dave

Kayak's recomended!
 

On 15-Apr-2004, Peter Unold wrote:

I'm curious. Could you give us some details on the problems with the
Andromeda? I've noticed that the boat has an exceptional large amount
of rocker. Perhaps that's what Hutchinson considers a romantic boat.

If it has a lot of rocker, I didn't notice it in paddling. That kayak
is very tippy and very unresponsive. I felt like I was sitting inside
a log. If you're going to make a kayak tippy, you've got to give me
something in return - like handling. The Andromeda is one of the lamest
Kayaks I've ever paddled. They made it long, but it isn't particularly
fast. Secondary stability feels like its barely there. Mediocre response
to carving.

Before it was released, Mike Henderson of Current Designs told me about
this great new kayak they were developing. Long and fast, responsive
etc. I looked forward to paddling it and it was a big disappointment.
It took the dealer over a year to sell the one I test paddled. I'm
sure you can find folks who like the Andromeda, but with so many
good kayaks on the market, get something else.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

On 15-Apr-2004, "Dave Van" wrote:

I'm curious about Impex kayaks. The Currituck and Assatigue are on my list
of boats to demo (I'm kind of on the fence between these two size-wise). It
would be a days drive to get to a dealer that has demos of these kayaks as
well as others I'm interested in. I have heard good feedback from Impex
owners and others that have tried them out.

So have I - they're quite popular around here.

Have you heard or seen first
hand any failures of the deck layups by this manufacturer? I tend to follow
the old adage "if it doesn't bend a little, it will probably break". What
about the hulls? What's your impression of the layup there?

No specific examples of damage, but even one of the dealers here has said
they are lightly built and "you get what you pay for". They don't bend a
little, they bend a lot and that's both deck and hull. I just don't trust
them - I'd rather buy a more robust kayak. YMMV

prices on some dealer web sites, the Currituck is $2550 in glass. The
Caribou, Gulfstream, and Slipstream are $2595, The endeavor $2830 and the
Arctic Hawk is just $2200. That doesn't appear to me that the Impex model
is lower in price to the point that it would suggest that they are skimping
on material.

Compare to Canadian prices:
C$ US$
Serenity Sport $2700 $2400 (can't find the Currituck price in Canada)
Caribou S $3450 $2600
Gulfstream $3400 $2600
Slipstream $3400 $2600
Endeavour $3600 $2800
Arctic Hawk $?? $2200

Big difference here. I find it interesting to compare US and Cdn pricing
on kayaks, since US kayakers were getting ripped off on some models.
This was especially true when the US dollar was very high in value.

So here, the Impex models (sold under the Formula name) are much cheaper
than the big boys and the difference shows. NOTE: it is possible that
the US models are better built by Impex than the Formula models made
here. I'll leave that to you to verify.


Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 15-Apr-2004, "Dave Van" wrote:

I'm curious about Impex kayaks. The Currituck and Assatigue are on my
list
of boats to demo (I'm kind of on the fence between these two size-wise).
It
would be a days drive to get to a dealer that has demos of these kayaks
as
well as others I'm interested in. I have heard good feedback from Impex
owners and others that have tried them out.

So have I - they're quite popular around here.

Have you heard or seen first
hand any failures of the deck layups by this manufacturer? I tend to
follow
the old adage "if it doesn't bend a little, it will probably break".
What
about the hulls? What's your impression of the layup there?

No specific examples of damage, but even one of the dealers here has said
they are lightly built and "you get what you pay for". They don't bend a
little, they bend a lot and that's both deck and hull. I just don't trust
them - I'd rather buy a more robust kayak. YMMV

prices on some dealer web sites, the Currituck is $2550 in glass. The
Caribou, Gulfstream, and Slipstream are $2595, The endeavor $2830 and
the
Arctic Hawk is just $2200. That doesn't appear to me that the Impex
model
is lower in price to the point that it would suggest that they are
skimping
on material.

Compare to Canadian prices:
C$ US$
Serenity Sport $2700 $2400 (can't find the Currituck price in Canada)
Caribou S $3450 $2600
Gulfstream $3400 $2600
Slipstream $3400 $2600
Endeavour $3600 $2800
Arctic Hawk $?? $2200

Odd...



Big difference here. I find it interesting to compare US and Cdn pricing
on kayaks, since US kayakers were getting ripped off on some models.
This was especially true when the US dollar was very high in value.

So here, the Impex models (sold under the Formula name) are much cheaper
than the big boys and the difference shows. NOTE: it is possible that
the US models are better built by Impex than the Formula models made
here. I'll leave that to you to verify.


Mike

Thanks, Mike. Sounds like there may be some differences in the ones local
to you vs. the ones here in the US. I suppose I could make the trip and
find out that the seat is uncomfortable for me or the thigh braces don't hit
me in the right spot or that the hull seeems too flexible. Either way, it's
a more informed decision by seeing it in person as well as considering your
educated observations.

I was most intrigued by the positive review that the Currituck received from
Steve Sherrer who mentioned a few negatives about the taughtness of the
safety lines and looseness of the deck rigging, both of which could be
adjusted easily. Steve's Tempest is on my short list as well.

Thanks again. Lot's to think about.

Enjoy!

DV

Kayak's recomended!
 

I've got an Endeavor and would take it over a Currituck any day. I found
the Impex felt cheap and was too tippy for the handling. The Endeavor is
rock solid in terms of build quality and I find it very responsive. I've
banged my Endeavor up a bit and like an old timex it keeps on ticking.
Besides the Seaward people will let you put just about any color
combination you can think of on the thing:)

Dave Van wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 15-Apr-2004, "Dave Van" wrote:


I'm curious about Impex kayaks. The Currituck and Assatigue are on my

list

of boats to demo (I'm kind of on the fence between these two size-wise).

It

would be a days drive to get to a dealer that has demos of these kayaks

as

well as others I'm interested in. I have heard good feedback from Impex
owners and others that have tried them out.

So have I - they're quite popular around here.


Have you heard or seen first
hand any failures of the deck layups by this manufacturer? I tend to

follow

the old adage "if it doesn't bend a little, it will probably break".

What

about the hulls? What's your impression of the layup there?

No specific examples of damage, but even one of the dealers here has said
they are lightly built and "you get what you pay for". They don't bend a
little, they bend a lot and that's both deck and hull. I just don't trust
them - I'd rather buy a more robust kayak. YMMV


prices on some dealer web sites, the Currituck is $2550 in glass. The
Caribou, Gulfstream, and Slipstream are $2595, The endeavor $2830 and

the

Arctic Hawk is just $2200. That doesn't appear to me that the Impex

model

is lower in price to the point that it would suggest that they are

skimping

on material.

Compare to Canadian prices:
C$ US$
Serenity Sport $2700 $2400 (can't find the Currituck price in Canada)
Caribou S $3450 $2600
Gulfstream $3400 $2600
Slipstream $3400 $2600
Endeavour $3600 $2800
Arctic Hawk $?? $2200


Odd...



Big difference here. I find it interesting to compare US and Cdn pricing
on kayaks, since US kayakers were getting ripped off on some models.
This was especially true when the US dollar was very high in value.

So here, the Impex models (sold under the Formula name) are much cheaper
than the big boys and the difference shows. NOTE: it is possible that
the US models are better built by Impex than the Formula models made
here. I'll leave that to you to verify.


Mike


Thanks, Mike. Sounds like there may be some differences in the ones local
to you vs. the ones here in the US. I suppose I could make the trip and
find out that the seat is uncomfortable for me or the thigh braces don't hit
me in the right spot or that the hull seeems too flexible. Either way, it's
a more informed decision by seeing it in person as well as considering your
educated observations.

I was most intrigued by the positive review that the Currituck received from
Steve Sherrer who mentioned a few negatives about the taughtness of the
safety lines and looseness of the deck rigging, both of which could be
adjusted easily. Steve's Tempest is on my short list as well.

Thanks again. Lot's to think about.

Enjoy!

DV

Kayak's recomended!
 

Hi

"Michael Daly" wrote:
If it has a lot of rocker, I didn't notice it in paddling. That kayak
is very tippy and very unresponsive.

I got the numbers from the SK review:
Length: 5.26m
Waterline length with 68kg paddler: 4.19m

That's one rockered boat.

[...]
The Andromeda is one of the lamest Kayaks I've ever paddled.
Puts the SK reviews in a different perspective...

--
Peter Unold- http://www.unold.dk/paddling

Kayak's recomended!
 

Peter Unold wrote in
:

Hey

John Fereira wrote:
At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda
and someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a
mistake.

I'm curious. Could you give us some details on the problems with the
Andromeda?

I've never paddled one. I'm just reporting what I heard others say about it.

I've noticed that the boat has an exceptional large amount
of rocker. Perhaps that's what Hutchinson considers a romantic boat.

Hard to say. My take on the answer below is that his romance analogy was
more in reference to how a boat looked (i.e. whether it had sexy lines) and
really nothing to do with how much rocker it had.

Paddler - Jan/Feb 2002:

Paddler: What's the best new technological innovation in the sport?

Hutchinson: There haven't really been any in the last ten years. It's
a shame about boat designs, though. A lot of the new boats are
functional - they'll all float - but they look like a bucket of
squashed frogs. It seems the designers have no romance in their soul
at all.

Kayak's recomended!
 

John Fereira wrote in message ...
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best all-
round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere as well
if you like the Explorer.

I've heard many compare the Ellsemere to the Caribou too. It has an
aggressively molded seat so if it fits the shape of your butt it's going to
be real comfortable.
I found a dealer in Plymouth, MA who has Ellsemere and Surge Marine.
His demo spot is on a large inland lake. Patriots's Day in MA there
were up to 40 mi/hr gusts and strong chop on the lake. I asked the
dealer which boat was more stable and when he replied Surge decided to
demo it even though I had come down for the Ellesmere. The dock and
lake were roiling and I had not a little fear in my heart when I
pulled away. The Surge knifed through the chop nicely and didn't seem
to mind the wind. I wasn't brave enough to try edging under the
conditions and after less than 15 backed it into the dock and was
happy to be off the water. While I announced to my host that I didn't
think I was up for any more demoing today he suggested I at least sit
in the Ellesmere. That was enough for me, unless I was interested in
strong prostate stimulation along with my paddling, I did not like
that seat with the raised prostate bumb in the middle. What were those
Quebec folks thinking? Speaking of seats, the next day I spent an hour
in a WS Tempest 170 pro. More tractable conditions up to 20 Mi /hr
gusts and some current on the Charles river. I found the seat and
outfitting to be most impressive and comfortable. the boat however was
more affected by wind than I would have liked and I found myself
employing the skeg a lot going downwind and even needed it going
upwind occassionally. Stability seemed excellent . Well I won't buy a
boat just because I like the seat, but I won't buy a boat either which
has a seat I hate. I'm thinking now that maybe I'd be better off
spending all this time demoing other boats on paddling my own boat and
trying to improve my skills. After all how can you appreciate what a
performance boat has to offer if you're not willing to push it. thanks
to all who have responded. I value your opinions.----Cheers Gene
So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists

Slipstream - but that may be tippy for someone your size. There's also
an Andromeda, but I found that to be a dreadful kayak.

At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda and
someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a mistake.

Try the Skerray - I find it roughly similar to a Gulfstream based on a
short paddle. John F. will no doubt be able to point out the differences
much better than I. However, I think the Skerray is worth checking out
if you like the Gulfstream.

Doh! Why didn't I think of the Skerray? Perhaps because mine has a Ocean
cockpit that I knew he wouldn't like. The Skerray likely would be a good
one to try. It's got real nice initial stability, is very responsive but a
bit faster than a Romany or Avocet. I've had mine for 6 years or so and
have since built two higher performance boats. Every once in awhile I think
about selling the Skerray but then I get in an paddle it and get reminded
how much fun that boat is to paddle.

Kayak's recomended!
 

On 24-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

Ellesmere. That was enough for me, unless I was interested in
strong prostate stimulation along with my paddling, I did not like
that seat with the raised prostate bumb in the middle. What were those
Quebec folks thinking?

For me, it's the most comfortable seat I've ever sat in.

Sounds like you're too big for the seat. Either that or you're pushing
your hips forward. Remember that proper paddling posture means that
you spine is relatively straight and your shoulders are above or barely
forward of your hips. No slouching and no leaning against the backrest.

A friend of mine ordered an Ellesmere with a bumpless seat. Boreal Designs
simply filled the mold at the front and made a seat that has the curves
everywhere but with the bump flattened out.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

Kayak's recomended!
 

John Fereira wrote in message ...
(Gene Cosloy) wrote in
m:

John Fereira wrote in message
...
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best
all- round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere
as well if you like the Explorer.

I've heard many compare the Ellsemere to the Caribou too. It has an
aggressively molded seat so if it fits the shape of your butt it's
going to be real comfortable.
I found a dealer in Plymouth, MA who has Ellsemere and Surge Marine.
His demo spot is on a large inland lake. Patriots's Day in MA there
were up to 40 mi/hr gusts and strong chop on the lake. I asked the
dealer which boat was more stable and when he replied Surge decided to
demo it even though I had come down for the Ellesmere. The dock and
lake were roiling and I had not a little fear in my heart when I
pulled away. The Surge knifed through the chop nicely and didn't seem
to mind the wind. I wasn't brave enough to try edging under the
conditions and after less than 15 backed it into the dock and was
happy to be off the water. While I announced to my host that I didn't
think I was up for any more demoing today he suggested I at least sit
in the Ellesmere. That was enough for me, unless I was interested in
strong prostate stimulation along with my paddling, I did not like
that seat with the raised prostate bumb in the middle. What were those
Quebec folks thinking?

As I said, some people like it, some people don't. The seat in the
Ellsemere is certainly different from any other boat I've seen.

Speaking of seats, the next day I spent an hour
in a WS Tempest 170 pro.

I've heard very good things about the seats in the new Necky boats and I've
always been a fan of the Looksha IV and definitely want to give their new
Chathams a try.

Well I won't buy a
boat just because I like the seat, but I won't buy a boat either which
has a seat I hate.

At least in the latter case, if you don't like the seat it's not that
difficult to modify it or remove it entirely and replace it was a carved
closed cell foam seat (what I've got in all of my boats). That's one of the
reasons I've always liked the seats in the Seaward boats. They're *very*
basic, which makes them easier to modify or replace with closed cell foam.

I'm thinking now that maybe I'd be better off
spending all this time demoing other boats on paddling my own boat and
trying to improve my skills. After all how can you appreciate what a
performance boat has to offer if you're not willing to push it.

Perhaps an intermediate/advanced lesson makes sense or head up to the Kayak
symposium in Castine, Maine this summer where you can take an advance lesson
*and* demo more boats than you could paddle in a weekend. If you did
something like that you'd have a very good idea what you'd want for next
year.
Sounds like a good plan, unfortunately almost all the symposiums and
demo days being scheduled are for the 99% of the population that has
the weekends free. My free days are Mon. & tues. For that reason I'm
really grateful that Charles River Canoe & Kayak will let you demo any
day. the downside is it's on the Charles river, so without a dood deal
of bluster and chop you really can't get a sense of how the boat will
perform in salt water. I've come down now to two boats that i could be
very happy with: the Tempest 170Pro and the P&H Quest. Anyone have any
thoughts or comments about the Quest. I thought it was lively i.e.
moderate primary, easy to edge but stable as you approached putting
the cockpit in the water, quite fast, no tendency to weather cock,
terrific cockpit for me, plenty of room for size 12 feet, and not
exactly a boat that turns sharply. I'd like to know if others have
tried it particularly in salt water. It seemed similar to the NDK
Explorer?

Gene

Kayak's recomended!
 

Yeah, the Ellesmere seat was a killer for me as well. So, I yanked it out
and essentially duplicated the seat in minicell foam leaving the hump only
way forward. Now, it's very comfortable and I really enjoy the boat.



"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 24-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

Ellesmere. That was enough for me, unless I was interested in
strong prostate stimulation along with my paddling, I did not like
that seat with the raised prostate bumb in the middle. What were those
Quebec folks thinking?

For me, it's the most comfortable seat I've ever sat in.

Sounds like you're too big for the seat. Either that or you're pushing
your hips forward. Remember that proper paddling posture means that
you spine is relatively straight and your shoulders are above or barely
forward of your hips. No slouching and no leaning against the backrest.

A friend of mine ordered an Ellesmere with a bumpless seat. Boreal
Designs
simply filled the mold at the front and made a seat that has the curves
everywhere but with the bump flattened out.

Mike

Kayak's recomended!
 

"news" wrote in
:

Yeah, the Ellesmere seat was a killer for me as well. So, I yanked it
out and essentially duplicated the seat in minicell foam leaving the
hump only way forward. Now, it's very comfortable and I really enjoy
the boat.

Interesting idea. I've seen a couple of articles around on how to build a
fiberglass seat (Ross Liedy's site had a good description). One could make
a mould from the original seat, modify it slightly so that it doesn't have
that bump, and then lay up a new seat.

One of the articles I read described creating the mold for a seat by sitting
in a box of sand covered with thin plastic. That way you can create a seat
that fits your body perfectly.

Kayak's recomended!
 

"John Fereira" wrote...

Yeah, the Ellesmere seat was a killer for me as well. So, I yanked it
out and essentially duplicated the seat in minicell foam

Interesting idea. I've seen a couple of articles around on how to build a
fiberglass seat (Ross Liedy's site had a good description). One could
make
a mould from the original seat, modify it slightly so that it doesn't have
that bump, and then lay up a new seat.

One of the articles I read described creating the mold for a seat by
sitting
in a box of sand covered with thin plastic. That way you can create a
seat
that fits your body perfectly.

A Thermarest pad works just fine for me! Relatively inexpensive,
adjustable, and low in the hull! A couple squares of Velcro hold it in...

Kayak's recomended!
 

"John R Weiss" wrote in
news:9u9mc.28325$IG1.1221001@attbi_s04:

"John Fereira" wrote...

Yeah, the Ellesmere seat was a killer for me as well. So, I yanked
it out and essentially duplicated the seat in minicell foam

Interesting idea. I've seen a couple of articles around on how to
build a fiberglass seat (Ross Liedy's site had a good description).
One could make a mould from the original seat, modify it slightly so
that it doesn't have that bump, and then lay up a new seat.

One of the articles I read described creating the mold for a seat by
sitting in a box of sand covered with thin plastic. That way you can
create a seat that fits your body perfectly.

A Thermarest pad works just fine for me! Relatively inexpensive,
adjustable, and low in the hull! A couple squares of Velcro hold it
in...

A thermarest pad provides no back, thigh, or hip support. If you want good
body to boat contact (which you would if you want good control) you're still
going to need some kind of back band and padded cheek plates. In some
cases, a thermarest might be *too* low in the hull, giving too much initial
stability. I once paddled a Guillemot that was not quite finished that was
outfitted with only a thin sleeping pad. I practically had to come out the
seat to get the boat on edge and the Guillemot is only 20" wide.

Kayak's recomended!
 

"John Fereira" wrote...

A thermarest pad provides no back, thigh, or hip support. If you want good
body to boat contact (which you would if you want good control) you're still
going to need some kind of back band and padded cheek plates.

True. The kayak is wood, and the backband wraps around from cheekplates between
the coaming and hull bottom. There is enough adjustment available in the
backband to accommodate personal preferences.