No, this is not another skeg vs. rudder thread, promise... I'm a recent
owner of a CD Caribou-S, which at least many find benefits from having a
skeg (though that is also a somewhat controversial subject). Personally,
with my level of experience and where I paddle (on the Hudson, which can get
pretty windy), I'm finding it quite useful to keep the boat from turning
upwind so eagerly.

My question actually concerns the adjustability of the thing, whether to put
it all the way down or not. I've read comments suggesting a mid-deploy might
be good for balancing things if full-deploy makes the boat want to turn
downwind, due to presumably really extreme hull sideslip. I haven't been out
there when it's been that windy, yet. I've also read that you only use
enough to keep you pointing in the direction you want. What bothers me about
this advice is what it must imply, which is that the boat and skeg are not
going through the water straight in these partially-deployed scenarios,
crabbing, in other words. I'm assuming this because it would seem a
full-deploy would be the most likely to make the boat go straight, or in any
case have the water flow most parallel to the keel axis, even of the boat
does want to arc downwind. If partial-deploy alters the direction the boat
naturally goes in to be less wanting to arc downwind, it seems it can only
be due to allowing side-slipping.

This seems less efficient, both due to turbulence from the side-slipping
skeg and just from the hull itself not going through the water optimally.
Seems like it would be better to fully-deploy the skeg, if you are gong to
use it at all, and use paddling technique to keep you going straight.
Corrective strokes on the downwind side would tend to minimize sideslip,
whereas corrective strokes on the upwind side (for those who like this boat
without the skeg) would seem to increase sideslip.

Yes? No? Maybe?

Mike

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:52:23 GMT, "Mike Hackett"
posted:

No, this is not another skeg vs. rudder thread, promise... I'm a recent
owner of a CD Caribou-S, which at least many find benefits from having a
skeg (though that is also a somewhat controversial subject). Personally,
with my level of experience and where I paddle (on the Hudson, which can get
pretty windy), I'm finding it quite useful to keep the boat from turning
upwind so eagerly.

My question actually concerns the adjustability of the thing, whether to put
it all the way down or not. I've read comments suggesting a mid-deploy might
be good for balancing things if full-deploy makes the boat want to turn
downwind, due to presumably really extreme hull sideslip. I haven't been out
there when it's been that windy, yet. I've also read that you only use
enough to keep you pointing in the direction you want. What bothers me about
this advice is what it must imply, which is that the boat and skeg are not
going through the water straight in these partially-deployed scenarios,
crabbing, in other words. I'm assuming this because it would seem a
full-deploy would be the most likely to make the boat go straight, or in any
case have the water flow most parallel to the keel axis, even of the boat
does want to arc downwind. If partial-deploy alters the direction the boat
naturally goes in to be less wanting to arc downwind, it seems it can only
be due to allowing side-slipping.

This seems less efficient, both due to turbulence from the side-slipping
skeg and just from the hull itself not going through the water optimally.
Seems like it would be better to fully-deploy the skeg, if you are gong to
use it at all, and use paddling technique to keep you going straight.
Corrective strokes on the downwind side would tend to minimize sideslip,
whereas corrective strokes on the upwind side (for those who like this boat
without the skeg) would seem to increase sideslip.

Yes? No? Maybe?

All three! Well, no, it depends on your boat, the load in the boat
at any given time, the wind direction, tide or current, all the
usual variables.

Your boat is gonna side slip even if you keep the skeg down. The
skeg may minimize the crabwise action, but not much. All it really
does is affect the way the stern responds to wind. The bow of the
boat will still happily blow where it will. The ideal
configuration, to my way of thinking, is for the boat to want to
head (gently) into the wind when no skeg is deployed. I rented a
boat a little over a month ago, though, and without the skeg there
was no way to keep that thing from turning on a dime in the
relatively light wind I was in. I digress. With the skeg fully
deployed, a nice boat will slightly turn from the wind, and,
presumably, sliding the skeg into any of the intermediate positions
will give an infinitely variable response between the two extremes,
which ought to come in handy, or be somewhat satisfactory, in almost
any situation.

I use minimum skeg, too, because the damn thing slows me down.

Mike Soja

On 28-Jun-2004, "Mike Hackett" wrote:

Seems like it would be better to fully-deploy the skeg, if you are gong to
use it at all, and use paddling technique to keep you going straight.

If there is a wind from any direction other than straight ahead or straight
astern, your kayak is going to sideslip, regardless of skeg, rudder, keel
shape etc. What you want to do is minimize the sideslip. The problem with
fully deploying a skeg to do this is that it can lead to leecocking. So
the only logical thing to do is deploy the skeg only enough to provide a
reasonable amount of control and paddle away.

If you want to make a kayak more "efficient", you'll have to design it with a
means to minimize sideslip without allowing it to either weather- or leecock.
This means a keel or vertical fin that is closer to the center of gravity.
However, this may increase drag which in turn reduces the "efficiency".

Just set the skeg and enjoy the paddling. You'll be able to get more out of
improving your forward stroke than futzing with the skeg setting.

Mike

You're overthinking the subject. A boat that stays on the course you
want to paddle will be the most efficient. Just use as much skeg as the
situation requires and forget about the rest.

Brian Nystrom wrote in message
...
You're overthinking the subject. A boat that stays on the course you
want to paddle will be the most efficient. Just use as much skeg as the
situation requires and forget about the rest.


So what would you have me think about while I'm in the office with my head
still out in the river? Something to do with my job?

It is possible to stay on course with the boat pointing at least close to
the direction you are going (skeg all the way down), or stay on course with
it pointing further away from the direction you are going (less skeg).
That's the issue.

Mike

MikeSoja wrote in message
...
Your boat is gonna side slip even if you keep the skeg down. The
skeg may minimize the crabwise action, but not much. All it really
does is affect the way the stern responds to wind. The bow of the
boat will still happily blow where it will.

Yes, it will, but at least with the skeg forcing the stern somewhat in line
you can be assured of traveling through the water along the keel of the boat
(or closely, anyway). You may have to do some downwind-side correcting
strokes to hold a course, if the wind is really strong.

I use minimum skeg, too, because the damn thing slows me down.


I've tried to get a feel for this by using a GPS, but in rough water and
wind and ever-changing river current it's sort of hard to tell, so far. It's
real easy to tell in calm conditions that the skeg is detracting from the
glide of the boat, though, don't need a GPS for that.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote in message
...
On 28-Jun-2004, "Mike Hackett" wrote:

Just set the skeg and enjoy the paddling. You'll be able to get more out
of
improving your forward stroke than futzing with the skeg setting.


Yeah, I don't like the futzing part, at all. That's why I want to put it all
the way down and leave it. So far I haven't encountered any conditions where
having it all the way down caused the boat to turn downwind. I've gotten the
impression the Caribou is a little bit more of a natural upwinder than many.

Mike

On 29-Jun-2004, "Mike Hackett" wrote:

I've gotten the
impression the Caribou is a little bit more of a natural upwinder than many.

I should have paid more attention to the fact you're talking about a Caribou S.
The Caribou S doesn't use a fin skeg and the hull is a significant V shape. As
such, with a bit of ballast in the rear it doesn't even need a skeg. Since
it's less dependent on the skeg, no matter what setting you use, it will
result in a less noticable change in performance than some other kayaks.
Try shifting some weight to the rear and skipping the skeg.

Mike

Mike Hackett wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote in message
...

You're overthinking the subject. A boat that stays on the course you
want to paddle will be the most efficient. Just use as much skeg as the
situation requires and forget about the rest.



So what would you have me think about while I'm in the office with my head
still out in the river? Something to do with my job?

It is possible to stay on course with the boat pointing at least close to
the direction you are going (skeg all the way down), or stay on course with
it pointing further away from the direction you are going (less skeg).
That's the issue.

If you've got a beam wind, you're going to need to ferry into it in
order to maintain the desired course, so pointing slightly upwind is
preferable. Pointing straight or downwind will cause you to travel a
longer, parabolic course.

Michael Daly wrote in message
...
On 29-Jun-2004, "Mike Hackett" wrote:

I've gotten the
impression the Caribou is a little bit more of a natural upwinder than
many.

I should have paid more attention to the fact you're talking about a
Caribou S.
The Caribou S doesn't use a fin skeg and the hull is a significant V
shape. As
such, with a bit of ballast in the rear it doesn't even need a skeg.
Since
it's less dependent on the skeg, no matter what setting you use, it will
result in a less noticable change in performance than some other kayaks.
Try shifting some weight to the rear and skipping the skeg.

Huh, looks like a fin to me, kinda triangle-shaped. Whatever.

I do have to try the ballast technique, since many that have one of these
without the skeg say that's all it takes. I'm a bit skeptical, since those
skegless people can't actually be too objective about it, now can they? I
really don't want to end up doing that since it's just more to hassle with,
I don't want to transport it or hump it on my shoulder with that extra
weight in there. My kayaking consists of nothing but unloaded few-hour
trips, no expeditions.

I'm also wondering what detriment paddling that extra weight around is when
you don't really need it. And exactly how much it changes the attitude of
the boat, does it assume a goofy bow up/stern down angle.

Mike