Hello-

I've previously built the Pygmy Coho and Pygmy Osprey Triple wooden
(stitch and glue) kayaks. I'm now looking at other manufacturers just
for some diversity (I -really- like the Coho).

I'm considering Roy Folland's designs (http://www.royfolland.com/) and
also the Chesapeake boats (http://www.clcboats.com/).

Does anyone have experience building a few different models? What are
the preferred aspects of each?

I'm also considering a strip-built kayak, but I don't think my skils
are there yet.

Cheers,
Jake

On 6 Jul 2004 06:46:52 -0700, Jake Janovetz wrote:

Does anyone have experience building a few different models? What
are the preferred aspects of each?

I have only built one, a Pygmy Coho. I was a raw novice in woodworking and
boatbuilding, and it took me about 135 hours over 6 months to complete on
available evenings and weekends. The result was excellent:
http://www.tsca.net/puget/coho1.htm.

I think you'll find that either of the major kit makers -- Pygmy or CLC --
will be equivalent in the building experience. The choice will come down to
the individual boat, regardless of source. As far as I can tell, the gross
visible difference between the 2 companies' boats is the arched deck (CLC)
vs segmented deck (Pygmy). Otherwise, they each have a range of hull types
(hard chine to multi-chine). If you have the opportunity to test paddle one
or more boats from one or both sources, that will help you decide. I chose
Pygmy solely because they are close to me and I could visit them. I chose
the Coho after test-paddling it and the Arctic Tern; the Coho just felt
better to me.

If you're going to build from plans rather than a kit, you have a wider
choice. Again, it is difficult to determine the "feel" of a particular
kayak from literature, so paddling a friend's boat will help a decision.

Melissa wrote in
:

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On 6 Jul 2004 06:46:52 -0700, Jake Janovetz wrote:

Does anyone have experience building a few different models? What are
the preferred aspects of each?

Hi Jake,

This is rather embarrassing to admit, but I'm finally just about
finished with a boat I started building in August, 2002! :-) My only
excuse for taking so long is that life sometimes gets in the way of
boaty building.

It's about time Melissa :-). Got pictures yet?

This boat I'm building is an Arctic Hawk from CLC/Superior Kayaks
(Mark Rogers design). It's a great kit, and comes with a very
detailed 450 page building manual. I did use a completely internal
system to mount the foot braces, so I didn't have to drill holes
through the hull.

This is the first boat I've built, so I can't directly compare the
building process with other S&G boats, but from what other builders
have said, the building process for this AH is a bit more involved
than many other S&G boats (multiple strips of wood laminated together
to create the sheer clamps

That's not unusual for a S&G boat that uses sheer clamps. Finding stock
long enough to make sheer clamps for a 17-18' boat can be difficult.

, several areas with multiple overlapping
layers of glass reinforcement,

Again, not uncommon for those that choose to build a boat with a heavier
layup. For a cedar strip boat it's pretty much standard.

a "keel strip" of wood glued into the
cockpit keel fillet,

Now, that *is* different. Did the manual call for that? I'd be interested
to hear how much the Hawk ends up weighing.

thickened epoxy wear strips on the keel at bow
and stern,

For may cedar strip boat I put on mahogany wear strips on the keel at the
bow and stern for a bit more protection. They wrap around onto the deck to
become part of the deck pattern.

"John R Weiss" wrote in
news:4yUGc.24452$JR4.11172@attbi_s54:

On 6 Jul 2004 06:46:52 -0700, Jake Janovetz wrote:

Does anyone have experience building a few different models? What
are the preferred aspects of each?

I have only built one, a Pygmy Coho. I was a raw novice in woodworking
and boatbuilding, and it took me about 135 hours over 6 months to
complete on available evenings and weekends. The result was excellent:
http://www.tsca.net/puget/coho1.htm.

I think you'll find that either of the major kit makers -- Pygmy or CLC
-- will be equivalent in the building experience. The choice will come
down to the individual boat, regardless of source. As far as I can
tell, the gross visible difference between the 2 companies' boats is
the arched deck (CLC) vs segmented deck (Pygmy).

While that is the obvious visible difference it also contributes to a big
difference in the construction process. The CLC boats use sheer clamp that
is epoxy-glued to the garboards (side panels). The arched deck is then
attached to the sheer clamp (typically with nails). On the Pygmy boats
temporary forms are used to create the shape of the deck then the deck and
hull are attached using a taped seam.

Otherwise, they each
have a range of hull types (hard chine to multi-chine). If you have
the opportunity to test paddle one or more boats from one or both
sources, that will help you decide. I chose Pygmy solely because they
are close to me and I could visit them. I chose the Coho after
test-paddling it and the Arctic Tern; the Coho just felt better to me.

Of the Pygmy boat I tried I liked the Coho the best too. The Arctic Tern,
at least for me, had way too much volume for a Greenland style design.

For the person that posting the initial message to the thread; don't sell
yourself short in your ability to build a cedar strip boat. The building
process is very forgiving, probably more so than building a S&G boat.

Of the Pygmy boat I tried I liked the Coho the best too. The Arctic Tern,
at least for me, had way too much volume for a Greenland style design.

For the person that posting the initial message to the thread; don't sell
yourself short in your ability to build a cedar strip boat. The building
process is very forgiving, probably more so than building a S&G boat.

John-

You sound quite knowledgeable on the designs of these kits. As I
mentioned, I've built two Pygmy's and am pleased with the results.
I'm very interested in the cedar strip design, but would like to see
one first. My aunt/uncle bought a double that was already built, but
I didn't like its design much at all. I think it was more of a
homebuilt than the more professionally assembled kits.

I'm mainly concerned about two things. First is the time required.
My Coho took about 80hrs and I've read that the cedar strips take
considerably longer than that. I'm also concerned about the equipment
required. I don't have much of a wood shop and frankly I'm not very
interested in acquiring one. I have friends with a good deal of
equipment, though.

Where would you suggest for a cedar strip kit? You've clearly seen
several of the s&g kits. What additional equipment would be required?

Cheers,
Jake

(Jake Janovetz) wrote in
om:

Of the Pygmy boat I tried I liked the Coho the best too. The Arctic
Tern, at least for me, had way too much volume for a Greenland style
design.

For the person that posting the initial message to the thread; don't
sell yourself short in your ability to build a cedar strip boat. The
building process is very forgiving, probably more so than building a
S&G boat.

John-

You sound quite knowledgeable on the designs of these kits. As I
mentioned, I've built two Pygmy's and am pleased with the results.
I'm very interested in the cedar strip design, but would like to see
one first.

Demoing a cedar strip model can be even more difficult than finding one of
the common S&G designs.

I'm mainly concerned about two things. First is the time required.
My Coho took about 80hrs and I've read that the cedar strips take
considerably longer than that.

My cedar strip boat took 5 months to build. I didn't work on it every day
and I didn't spend any marathon sessions working on it. The construction
process is pretty conducive to popping down to the work shop for an hour or
two to make some progress. In my case, since I live in the northeast in a
place where the winters are long and cold, their really isn't much local
paddling available, so it's a good time to work on boats. Since building a
cedar strip *is* a long, time-consuming process there is no point in trying
to rush it. I probably spent a longer time building mine since I did
everything from scratch (including milling my own strips). BTW, I've got a
website which chronicles the building of my Outer Island:

http://caddis.mannlib.cornell.edu/paddle/outerisland/

I'm also concerned about the equipment
required. I don't have much of a wood shop and frankly I'm not very
interested in acquiring one. I have friends with a good deal of
equipment, though.

How much additional equipment is needed is dependant upon whether you get a
kit, partial kit, or do everything from scratch. Premilled strips (with
beads and coves) can be purchased from a number of sources. Many of the
cedar strip designs have plans as well as pre-cut forms available. There are
some complete kits available that include everything you'll need (including
the strongback). Pretty much any of the tools you used to build the Coho
can also be used for a cedar strip boat.

If you're interested in building a cedar strip boat I strongly recommend
getting Nick Schades book (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Book/). Check out
the rest of his web site and especially the building forum to get any
possible question you might have answered.

Where would you suggest for a cedar strip kit? You've clearly seen
several of the s&g kits. What additional equipment would be required?

The best place for cedar strip kits is through Newfound Woodworks:
(http://www.newfound.com/)

Nick has a really good page which describes the tools you'll need.

http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Book/Tools/index.html

Melissa wrote in
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On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:37:56 GMT, John Fereira wrote:

(multiple strips of wood laminated together to create the sheer
clamps)

That's not unusual for a S&G boat that uses sheer clamps. Finding
stock long enough to make sheer clamps for a 17-18' boat can be
difficult.

I think you misunderstood what I meant with "multiple strips"...

I didn't mean just "end to end". The sheer clamps on the AH are
created by laminating thin pieces of plywood together at the same
time they're being glued onto the gunwales (also staggered in
length). This supposedly helps create sheer clamps that conform
easily to the curve of the sheer...especially the slight "recurve" of
the Greenland design at bow and stern. The recurve is held by
templates and wire clamps during this process. After the sheer
clamps are set, these subtle curves keep their shape.

Huh. The sheer clamps on my Northbay were constructed of three (if I
remember correctly) pieces of wood scarfed together before glueing them to
the garboards. I didn't notice that they caused the hull to lose it's shape
though I'm wondering if the wiring of the garboards at the bow and stern
might have gone a little easier if the method you used was done. The other
difference is that the sheer clamps are cut from pine stock and not plywood.
It would seem to me that the use of plywood might require the multiple piece
laminate more than if the sheer clamps were made of softer pine.

a "keel strip" of wood glued into the cockpit keel fillet,

Now, that *is* different. Did the manual call for that?

Yes. The strip is embedded in the keel fillet, and runs the full
length of the cockpit (extending slightly beyond both bulkheads at
either end of the cockpit).

Interesting.

I'd be interested to hear how much the Hawk ends up weighing.

The manual estimates a finished weight of 44 lbs. I don't have deck
fittings, deck lines, or cockpit outfitting installed yet, but even
at a few inches longer and slightly wider than my Caribou, it feels a
bit lighter than the Caribou. The Caribou is just under 50 lbs, and
I'll be very happy if the AH ends up in the same range (I'm not sure
it'll be 44 lbs., but I am pretty sure it'll be under 50 lbs.).

I've never weighed my Northbay but it feels like it weighs more than it's
estimated finished weight. My Outer Island on the hand feels very light.