Hello,
I've been paddling in kayaks (much longer in canoes) for only about three
years and mainly lakes. I'm looking for opinions on the P&H Orca 16. I like
a boat that doesn't feel "tippy", in other words stable, and one that, more
importantly tracks straight. I don't like fooling with rudders. I read on
their website that the Orca fits the bill, any opinions? I like the weight
at 50lbs. its about what a 60 year old can lift. Its plastic so I don't have
to worry about scratches, which happen where I paddle.
Thanks much for any help.
Bub

On 7/8/04 6:08 AM, in article , "bub"
wrote:

Hello,
I've been paddling in kayaks (much longer in canoes) for only about three
years and mainly lakes. I'm looking for opinions on the P&H Orca 16. I like
a boat that doesn't feel "tippy", in other words stable, and one that, more
importantly tracks straight. I don't like fooling with rudders. I read on
their website that the Orca fits the bill, any opinions? I like the weight
at 50lbs. its about what a 60 year old can lift. Its plastic so I don't have
to worry about scratches, which happen where I paddle.
Thanks much for any help.
Bub



You may wish to look at recent past postings in this group for some general
comments about P&H boats. I had asked for comments on the P&H Vela, and P&H
build quality in general, and received some helpful replies. Also, you
might want to check out the reviews on Paddling Net - there is one review on
the Orca: http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show...html?prod=1349
I tend to be a little skeptical about Paddling Net reviews since 90+% of
them are very favorable, but at least there is one very happy buyer.
One comment about stability since you say that is important to you -
perceived stability is obviously very relative to the paddler. P&H rates
the Orca as the most stable kayak in *their* line but you will find that a
lot of plastic boats with a beam that is wider than the Orca's. They
however may not track as straight (without rudder) or go as fast!
Chuck

Thanks, I looked at Paddling.net and they have a lot of useful reveiws.
However, usually only the folks who really like the boats write reveiws.
Good info anyway. I read the posts here everyday and have read a lot of good
things about P&H but not much specific to the Orca. My wife and I paddle
Wisconsin and UP lakes mostly and are looking forward to the day when we
have enough skill/confidence/strength/etc.. to go out on the big ones, i.e.,
Superior and Michigan. Hope we get that far before we get too old to do it.
I have a 17 foot Necky now and it weighs 64 lbs. nice bout but a barge to
move out of the water. Thanks again.
Bub

"bub" wrote in
:

Thanks, I looked at Paddling.net and they have a lot of useful reveiws.
However, usually only the folks who really like the boats write
reveiws.

That's often because the people writing the review are those that have
bought the boat that they're reviewing. I've also seen some very misleading
reviews. Someone posted a review of a Nordkapp as "the perfect size and
price for a beginner on a budget".

Good info anyway. I read the posts here everyday and have read
a lot of good things about P&H but not much specific to the Orca.

I've never seen an Orca and P&H is often pretty slow about updating their
web site. Like someone else mentioned they rate it as having the highest
amount of stability of any of their boats.

My
wife and I paddle Wisconsin and UP lakes mostly and are looking forward
to the day when we have enough skill/confidence/strength/etc.. to go
out on the big ones, i.e., Superior and Michigan. Hope we get that far
before we get too old to do it.

Do you really want a boat with a lot of initial stability if you're hoping
to develop the skills necessary on big water? A boat with a lot of initial
stability, by definition, resist a tendency to edge the boat, a skill that
you'll need when paddling rough water. Since it will be harder to edge/tip
it will be more difficult to learn how to brace as well.

Very good points to consider, thanks for bringing that up. I think I may
look at a Capellla as well. I have a friend that has one and he is out on
the *big* lakes every weekend. Thanks for the reply.
Bub
"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"bub" wrote in
:

Thanks, I looked at Paddling.net and they have a lot of useful reveiws.
However, usually only the folks who really like the boats write
reveiws.

That's often because the people writing the review are those that have
bought the boat that they're reviewing. I've also seen some very
misleading
reviews. Someone posted a review of a Nordkapp as "the perfect size and
price for a beginner on a budget".

Good info anyway. I read the posts here everyday and have read
a lot of good things about P&H but not much specific to the Orca.

I've never seen an Orca and P&H is often pretty slow about updating their
web site. Like someone else mentioned they rate it as having the highest
amount of stability of any of their boats.

My
wife and I paddle Wisconsin and UP lakes mostly and are looking forward
to the day when we have enough skill/confidence/strength/etc.. to go
out on the big ones, i.e., Superior and Michigan. Hope we get that far
before we get too old to do it.

Do you really want a boat with a lot of initial stability if you're hoping
to develop the skills necessary on big water? A boat with a lot of
initial
stability, by definition, resist a tendency to edge the boat, a skill that
you'll need when paddling rough water. Since it will be harder to
edge/tip
it will be more difficult to learn how to brace as well.

John Fereira wrote:

I've never seen an Orca and P&H is often pretty slow about updating their
web site. Like someone else mentioned they rate it as having the highest
amount of stability of any of their boats.

My
wife and I paddle Wisconsin and UP lakes mostly and are looking forward
to the day when we have enough skill/confidence/strength/etc.. to go
out on the big ones, i.e., Superior and Michigan. Hope we get that far
before we get too old to do it.

Do you really want a boat with a lot of initial stability if you're hoping
to develop the skills necessary on big water? A boat with a lot of initial
stability, by definition, resist a tendency to edge the boat, a skill that
you'll need when paddling rough water. Since it will be harder to edge/tip
it will be more difficult to learn how to brace as well.

I can assure you that the Orca is not difficult to get on edge. When I
demo a boat I always do a few high brace turns, and I laid the Orca on
its side without any difficulty.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Steve Cramer wrote in
:

John Fereira wrote:

I've never seen an Orca and P&H is often pretty slow about updating
their web site. Like someone else mentioned they rate it as having
the highest amount of stability of any of their boats.

My
wife and I paddle Wisconsin and UP lakes mostly and are looking
forward to the day when we have enough skill/confidence/strength/etc..
to go out on the big ones, i.e., Superior and Michigan. Hope we get
that far before we get too old to do it.

Do you really want a boat with a lot of initial stability if you're
hoping to develop the skills necessary on big water? A boat with a
lot of initial stability, by definition, resist a tendency to edge the
boat, a skill that you'll need when paddling rough water. Since it
will be harder to edge/tip it will be more difficult to learn how to
brace as well.

I can assure you that the Orca is not difficult to get on edge. When I
demo a boat I always do a few high brace turns, and I laid the Orca on
its side without any difficulty.


As I haven't paddled an Orca (nor even seen one) I can't argue with you but
I was speaking in the general sense. A boat with a high amount of initial
stability is, by definition, going to provide more resistance moving off an
initially stable position (center of gravity in a vertical plane over center
of bouyancy) than a boat with less initial stability.

I'm not saying that a stable boat *can't* be put on edge, but that it
requires more effort to do so. A couple of years ago I tried out a cedar
strip boat a guy built. He hadn't made a seat for it yet so it just had a
1/2" foam pad on the bottom. With the center of gravity so low it made it
very stable. When I tried a low brace turn with a J-lean it barely edged
over. I had to move my shoulders over the gunwhale to get enough weight to
the side and get it over to it's secondary stability. If I want to do a low
brace turn in one direction, then switch to the other side it would have
required a much great weight shift than a less stable boat. What that
stable boat did was allow me to get away with something (leaning over the
side rather than edging) that might cause a capsize in a less stable boat
(unless a brace was employed). I've also seen recreational boat paddlers
enter their boats by stepping into it then sitting down. Try that in a 22"
wide touring boat and you're most likely going to get wet. The point is
that if a beginner wants to develope advanced skills necessary to handle
rough conditions it probably make more sense to learn those skills in a boat
that isn't going to be so forgiving. Sure, you might get wet a few times
but that's just the boats way of telling you that you've done something
wrong, and as my father used to tell me when I was learning to ride a dirt
bike at the age of 10, "if you don't fall, you're not learning".

As far as being able to edge the Orca to do high brace turns goes...high
brace turns in a boat with high stability and low secondary are not that
difficult if you already know how to do a high brace turn. A couple of
years ago I was out playing in boats in front of my friends shop. I hopped
in a Prijon Capri (12' long, 25" wide). Even though it's pretty much in the
recreational class I was able to edge it way over with low and high brace
turns and bow rudder turns, do a sculling brace with both ears in the water,
and even roll it.