Thanks for the detailed reply. I've thought about it and I think you're
right about the strength of the stroke having little impact on direction. I
went kayaking yesterday and found out that by a "stronger" stroke, what I
was actually doing was as you suggested. The stroke is longer and I
subconsciously do a sweeping stroke...often adding a push toward in toward
the stern at the end of the sweep...causing the turn (sort of a modified J
stroke, I suppose).

Barry

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Barry" wrote in
hlink.net:

Yes, most kayaks are rigid structures....but when you push on one pedal
only, you tend to cause the kayak to lean to one side when the paddle
stroke is on the opposite side of the foot pressure. Think about it
for a moment and you'll see what I mean. It's a potential explanation
for the steering problems, IMHO.

I think that Brian and I both understand the mechanics of applying
pressure
on the footpegs while paddling. It's just that I don't think it would
make
more than a trivial impact on the direction of the kayak. As I wrote,
I've
done an exercise in which we paddled forward pressing with the same foot
as
the paddle stroke, and then tried it pressing the opposite foot. I didn't
notice any tendancy for the boat to go off course when I was pressing with
the opposite foot and the instructor for the course that was suggesting
the
exercise is one of the most accomplished expedition kayakers in the world
today.

I'm new to the sport and don't speak
from a lot of experience...but logic tells me that it could be an
explanation for steering problems. The other is that the strength of
the strokes is uneven. If you paddle hard on one side but not the
other, you slowly turn.

It might seem that way but the strength of the stroke usually doesn't
affect
the direction of the kayak. Once you get up a bit of speed, unless you're
trying to maintain a sprint pace, you don't to continue to paddle hard to
keep up a decent hull speed. The difference in arm strength certainly
wouldn't make much difference since the amount of effort required from
your
weakest arm is more than sufficient to keep up a good pace. What will
affect the direction to a much greater degree is the synchronicity of your
stroke. The strength of the stroke is only one aspect in achieving
identical strokes on the left and right side. There is also the length of
the stroke. For the strokes to be equal you need to put the blade in the
water the same distance from the bow on both sides and exit at the
distance
as well. I'm betting that if you try paddling harder on one side that
your
very likely keeping the paddle in the water longer on that side as well.
Secondly, there is the distance of the paddle away from the hull. If
you've
practice a sweep stroke you'll find that it's much more effective if
paddle
"draws a C" in the water so that the blade is a few feet from the boat
when
it is perpendicular with the cockpit than if the blade stays close to the
boat throughout the stroke. It would seem obvious then, that if the
stroke
on the right side of the boat is further away from the hull than the
stroke
on the left side that you'll generate more turning motion from the stroke
on
the right side. If you experiment with a sweep stroke a bit you'll find
that trying to turn the boat by pulling harder on the paddle doesn't
accomplish much and that a slow but complete sweep will turn the boat
quite
nicely. Finally, the orientation of the blade will significantly impact
the
power generated by the stroke and if the angle is not the same you'll
generate a much greater turning motion on one side. Typically this
happens
when using a feathered paddle and failing to turn the top edge of the
blade
toward you on the non-control hand side. When that happens the blade
tends
to slice down and scoop water rather that push water toward the stern.
That
would also tend to tilt the kayak to that side as you're bringing the
paddle
the paddle out (try putting a paddle blade in the water perpendicular to
the
boat and pulling it straight up and watch what happens).

Instead of trying to control the boat with brute force try slowing down
the
stroke so that you can feel the effect of the length of the stroke, the
distance of the paddle from the boat, and the angle of the paddle blades.
With practice it won't take long before you can keep your strokes
synchronous and only change them intentionally when you want to effect the
direction of the boat. For example, make a normal stroke on one side, but
do a sweep on the other.

I use this as a supplement to leaning or using
a J stroke to stay on course.

Using a J stroke in a kayak is very inefficient.

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:37:23 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

SNIP
I'm new to the sport and don't speak
from a lot of experience...but logic tells me that it could be an
explanation for steering problems. The other is that the strength of
the strokes is uneven. If you paddle hard on one side but not the
other, you slowly turn.

It might seem that way but the strength of the stroke usually doesn't affect
the direction of the kayak. Once you get up a bit of speed, unless you're
trying to maintain a sprint pace, you don't to continue to paddle hard to
keep up a decent hull speed. The difference in arm strength certainly
wouldn't make much difference since the amount of effort required from your
weakest arm is more than sufficient to keep up a good pace. What will
affect the direction to a much greater degree is the synchronicity of your
stroke. The strength of the stroke is only one aspect in achieving
identical strokes on the left and right side. There is also the length of
the stroke. For the strokes to be equal you need to put the blade in the
water the same distance from the bow on both sides and exit at the distance
as well. I'm betting that if you try paddling harder on one side that your
very likely keeping the paddle in the water longer on that side as well.
Secondly, there is the distance of the paddle away from the hull. If you've
practice a sweep stroke you'll find that it's much more effective if paddle
"draws a C" in the water so that the blade is a few feet from the boat when
it is perpendicular with the cockpit than if the blade stays close to the
boat throughout the stroke. It would seem obvious then, that if the stroke
on the right side of the boat is further away from the hull than the stroke
on the left side that you'll generate more turning motion from the stroke on
the right side. If you experiment with a sweep stroke a bit you'll find
that trying to turn the boat by pulling harder on the paddle doesn't
accomplish much and that a slow but complete sweep will turn the boat quite
nicely. Finally, the orientation of the blade will significantly impact the
power generated by the stroke and if the angle is not the same you'll
generate a much greater turning motion on one side. Typically this happens
when using a feathered paddle and failing to turn the top edge of the blade
toward you on the non-control hand side. When that happens the blade tends
to slice down and scoop water rather that push water toward the stern. That
would also tend to tilt the kayak to that side as you're bringing the paddle
the paddle out (try putting a paddle blade in the water perpendicular to the
boat and pulling it straight up and watch what happens).
snip

The paddle blade angle is one thought I hadn't had regarding our
situation in the original post. She is an inexperienced paddler and
I did give her a feathered paddle. I watched her at the beginninng
and she seemed to be using the feathered paddle properly but she may
have lost focus on that as the paddle went on. Since she continued
to turn in the unwanted direction even when paddling entirely on one
side of the boat, this couldn't account for the problem but it could
be an exacerbating factor. (I love big words. hope I spelled it
correctly)
As I posted elsewhere, I'm pretty sure at this point it was simply the
current pushing her boat from behind. The river is wide at that
point and there wasn't a lot of changing current factors such as you'd
find in a twisted creek, just a massive push of peak incoming tide.
I've never had anyone show me much about paddling and do most of what
I do intuitively so I haven't ever thought this stuff out before.

ccotter wrote:

I think there was an earlier post suggesting that the current or Wind were
bigger factors and I played with this on the weekend. With a tail current I
found that if I didn't keep straight in line with it, it would turn me
toward which ever side it was presented.

It's call "broaching" and it happens to all kayaks.

Based on this I eased off and made
my effort in keeping down the current and presto less effort and true
running. I would imagine that weather- cocking with the wind would be the
same effect but above the water.

Forward speed relative to the water increases water pressure at the bow
and reduces it at the stern. That makes a boat more prone to
weathercocking. Reducing your speed probably just reduced that tendency
somewhat. Unfortunately, reducing your speed and concentrating on
maintaining your course also dramatically reduces forward progress.

To ensure I wasn't situating the experiment, I tried it with a much longer
boat that tracks well and found that I didn't have the same experience,
therefore my humbel deduction is that it probably applies to all boats but
boats(Kayaks) that tend to turn more readily are more affected by current
and wind. A bold supposition but thats what I discovered. Hope this wasn't
motherhood.

Actually, stronger tracking boats can be more difficult to control in a
following sea. They will still tend to broach (it's unavoidable), but
they're harder to turn back downwave. A more maneuverable boat can be
brought back on course with less effort.

The difference you found between the boats you tried was most likely due
to differences in the water conditions or between the specific designs,
than strictly due to a difference in tracking.