I was out today with a friend who is new to paddling and I saw her
have a problem I've only seen a few times before and can't explain.
She was paddling a poly Prijon Seayak and could not get it to track
straight to save her life. The rudder was up (control line was
broken) but since there was not much wind I figured it wouldn't matter
much. We were paddling with the tide the whole way and it was pretty
strong at times.
It got so bad that at times she was paddling entirely on the right
side of her boat and still turning to the right! I watched her
stroke thinking maybe she was dragging the paddle at the end and
creating a rudder effect like with a J stroke but I didn't see that
happening. Her stroke isn't perfect, but I didnt' see anything that
would create the situation she was experiencing with great
frustration. Finally we found a sandy bank and switched boats with
her in my old Perception Sea Lion and me in the Seayak and it didn't
help. She still couldn't get the boat to track straight. I found
the Seayak a bit more skittish on the water (the wind picked up at
times) but didn't have any problem paddling it straight.

Now I've seen this happen with at least one person before (in
different boats) and we never could figure out what was causing it.
We tried changing the paddler's balance, paddle grip, and other
variables without success.

I keep thinking it must have to do with the strong tidal current that
we were paddling with but I'm not sure I can figure out why it would
be and why I wouldn't have been similarly affected. At one point
when she was in the Sea Lion I had her turn the boat around and paddle
against the current and she said it was "better".

Can anyone shine the magic light of experience on this for me?

Thanks,
John

Perhaps she was sitting off-center in the boat or leaning a bit,
popping the boat on an edge and therefore turning it by the curvature
of the craft? I would think that this much lean would have been
detectable by you, but maybe not.

Tracking can also be affected by the trim of the boat, but unless you
had it loaded or your partner had -really- heavy feet (!), I doubt
this would be an issue.

Jake


John/Charleston wrote in message . ..
I was out today with a friend who is new to paddling and I saw her
have a problem I've only seen a few times before and can't explain.
She was paddling a poly Prijon Seayak and could not get it to track
straight to save her life. The rudder was up (control line was
broken) but since there was not much wind I figured it wouldn't matter
much. We were paddling with the tide the whole way and it was pretty
strong at times.
It got so bad that at times she was paddling entirely on the right
side of her boat and still turning to the right! I watched her
stroke thinking maybe she was dragging the paddle at the end and
creating a rudder effect like with a J stroke but I didn't see that
happening. Her stroke isn't perfect, but I didnt' see anything that
would create the situation she was experiencing with great
frustration. Finally we found a sandy bank and switched boats with
her in my old Perception Sea Lion and me in the Seayak and it didn't
help. She still couldn't get the boat to track straight. I found
the Seayak a bit more skittish on the water (the wind picked up at
times) but didn't have any problem paddling it straight.

Now I've seen this happen with at least one person before (in
different boats) and we never could figure out what was causing it.
We tried changing the paddler's balance, paddle grip, and other
variables without success.

I keep thinking it must have to do with the strong tidal current that
we were paddling with but I'm not sure I can figure out why it would
be and why I wouldn't have been similarly affected. At one point
when she was in the Sea Lion I had her turn the boat around and paddle
against the current and she said it was "better".

Can anyone shine the magic light of experience on this for me?

Thanks,
John

I was in a different boat than what I was used to and I was having a like
problem. The reason was that I was tense and was inadvertently pushing one
knee up hard and it was throwing my whole balance out. After I stopped
fighting with the boat and relaxed all was well. The people I was paddling
with said that the boat looked mostly level but I think it was edging up
with each stroke.

--

"John/Charleston" wrote in message
...
I was out today with a friend who is new to paddling and I saw her
have a problem I've only seen a few times before and can't explain.
She was paddling a poly Prijon Seayak and could not get it to track
straight to save her life. The rudder was up (control line was
broken) but since there was not much wind I figured it wouldn't matter
much. We were paddling with the tide the whole way and it was pretty
strong at times.
It got so bad that at times she was paddling entirely on the right
side of her boat and still turning to the right! I watched her
stroke thinking maybe she was dragging the paddle at the end and
creating a rudder effect like with a J stroke but I didn't see that
happening. Her stroke isn't perfect, but I didnt' see anything that
would create the situation she was experiencing with great
frustration. Finally we found a sandy bank and switched boats with
her in my old Perception Sea Lion and me in the Seayak and it didn't
help. She still couldn't get the boat to track straight. I found
the Seayak a bit more skittish on the water (the wind picked up at
times) but didn't have any problem paddling it straight.

Now I've seen this happen with at least one person before (in
different boats) and we never could figure out what was causing it.
We tried changing the paddler's balance, paddle grip, and other
variables without success.

I keep thinking it must have to do with the strong tidal current that
we were paddling with but I'm not sure I can figure out why it would
be and why I wouldn't have been similarly affected. At one point
when she was in the Sea Lion I had her turn the boat around and paddle
against the current and she said it was "better".

Can anyone shine the magic light of experience on this for me?

Thanks,
John

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:16:30 GMT, "Kenneth McClelland"
wrote:


I was in a different boat than what I was used to and I was having a like
problem. The reason was that I was tense and was inadvertently pushing one
knee up hard and it was throwing my whole balance out. After I stopped
fighting with the boat and relaxed all was well. The people I was paddling
with said that the boat looked mostly level but I think it was edging up
with each stroke.



Also can happen if she's weighting the wrong foot on the stroke.

How do you figure that? Being essentially a rigid structure, the boat
won't respond any differently to pressure on one foot pedal than the
other. Except when used to control a rudder, all the foot pedals do is
provide support so the paddler can resist the force of the paddle
stroke. The commonly repeated notion that one can steer a kayak by
pushing on the foot pedals is nonsense. Steering is controlled by the
paddle strokes and/or edging/leaning.

wrote in
:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:16:30 GMT, "Kenneth McClelland"
wrote:

I was in a different boat than what I was used to and I was having a
like problem. The reason was that I was tense and was inadvertently
pushing one knee up hard and it was throwing my whole balance out.
After I stopped fighting with the boat and relaxed all was well. The
people I was paddling with said that the boat looked mostly level but I
think it was edging up with each stroke.


Also can happen if she's weighting the wrong foot on the stroke.

Which foot would that be? During a forward stroke clinic I took once from a
well known expedition kayaker he had us do an exercise which had us press
with the opposite foot as we took a stroke (i.e. if the paddle was in the
water on the left, push on the foot brace on the right). It didn't change
the direction of the boat but it was interesting in how it allowed for
greater torso rotation.

John/Charleston wrote in
:

I was out today with a friend who is new to paddling and I saw her
have a problem I've only seen a few times before and can't explain.
She was paddling a poly Prijon Seayak and could not get it to track
straight to save her life. The rudder was up (control line was
broken) but since there was not much wind I figured it wouldn't matter
much. We were paddling with the tide the whole way and it was pretty
strong at times.
It got so bad that at times she was paddling entirely on the right
side of her boat and still turning to the right! I watched her
stroke thinking maybe she was dragging the paddle at the end and
creating a rudder effect like with a J stroke but I didn't see that
happening. Her stroke isn't perfect, but I didnt' see anything that
would create the situation she was experiencing with great
frustration. Finally we found a sandy bank and switched boats with
her in my old Perception Sea Lion and me in the Seayak and it didn't
help. She still couldn't get the boat to track straight. I found
the Seayak a bit more skittish on the water (the wind picked up at
times) but didn't have any problem paddling it straight.

Now I've seen this happen with at least one person before (in
different boats) and we never could figure out what was causing it.
We tried changing the paddler's balance, paddle grip, and other
variables without success.

I keep thinking it must have to do with the strong tidal current that
we were paddling with but I'm not sure I can figure out why it would
be and why I wouldn't have been similarly affected. At one point
when she was in the Sea Lion I had her turn the boat around and paddle
against the current and she said it was "better".

My guess is that the current/wind was having more of an effect than you
thought it might.

However, the biggest problem that I have seen when people have trouble
keeping their kayak going straight is directly related to their paddle
stroke. Just out of curiosity, was this person left handed and using a
feathered paddle? Typically, if someone is having trouble with the boat
always going left (or right) it's because the angle of the paddle blade is
not the same on both sides. It occurs most frequently with right handed
paddlers and a failure to orient the left paddle blade such that the top of
the blade is tilted slightly back. If they're holding the paddle correctly
the blade on the control hand side will enter the water such that the top
edge of the blade is tilted slightly toward the paddler. If they're not
dropping their control hand elbow and bringing their control hand toward
their should when placing the non-control hand blade in the water, the top
edge will be tilted slightly forward and they'll end up scooping water
instead of getting the same amount of power on the non-control hand side.

A trick I use with beginners is to have the pause for just a second before
putting the paddle blade in on each side and glance at the orientation of
the blade to make sure that the angle is the same on both sides.

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:58:23 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

John/Charleston wrote in
:

I was out today with a friend who is new to paddling and I saw her
have a problem I've only seen a few times before and can't explain.
She was paddling a poly Prijon Seayak and could not get it to track
straight to save her life. The rudder was up (control line was
broken) but since there was not much wind I figured it wouldn't matter
much. We were paddling with the tide the whole way and it was pretty
strong at times.
It got so bad that at times she was paddling entirely on the right
side of her boat and still turning to the right! I watched her
stroke thinking maybe she was dragging the paddle at the end and
creating a rudder effect like with a J stroke but I didn't see that
happening. Her stroke isn't perfect, but I didnt' see anything that
would create the situation she was experiencing with great
frustration. Finally we found a sandy bank and switched boats with
her in my old Perception Sea Lion and me in the Seayak and it didn't
help. She still couldn't get the boat to track straight. I found
the Seayak a bit more skittish on the water (the wind picked up at
times) but didn't have any problem paddling it straight.

Now I've seen this happen with at least one person before (in
different boats) and we never could figure out what was causing it.
We tried changing the paddler's balance, paddle grip, and other
variables without success.

I keep thinking it must have to do with the strong tidal current that
we were paddling with but I'm not sure I can figure out why it would
be and why I wouldn't have been similarly affected. At one point
when she was in the Sea Lion I had her turn the boat around and paddle
against the current and she said it was "better".

My guess is that the current/wind was having more of an effect than you
thought it might.

Yeah, I've been thinking more about it and I'm thinking it was the
current pushing the rear of the boat sideways. It wasn't her leaning
as I had her paddle with a pronounced lean in both directions and it
didn't help. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the paddle stroke since as
I said she could paddle entirely on one side and still turn to that
side. But i'm thinking if she wasn't going faster than the current
it might have been grabbing the rear of the boat and pushing it in
whatever direction it was tending towards already. The boats weren't
loaded with much of anything but I'm not sure if that would have
helped any. Maybe she just needed to get the boat moving faster?

Yes, most kayaks are rigid structures....but when you push on one pedal
only, you tend to cause the kayak to lean to one side when the paddle stroke
is on the opposite side of the foot pressure. Think about it for a moment
and you'll see what I mean. It's a potential explanation for the steering
problems, IMHO. I'm new to the sport and don't speak from a lot of
experience...but logic tells me that it could be an explanation for steering
problems. The other is that the strength of the strokes is uneven. If you
paddle hard on one side but not the other, you slowly turn. I use this as a
supplement to leaning or using a J stroke to stay on course.


"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:16:30 GMT, "Kenneth McClelland"
wrote:


I was in a different boat than what I was used to and I was having a
like
problem. The reason was that I was tense and was inadvertently pushing
one
knee up hard and it was throwing my whole balance out. After I stopped
fighting with the boat and relaxed all was well. The people I was
paddling
with said that the boat looked mostly level but I think it was edging up
with each stroke.



Also can happen if she's weighting the wrong foot on the stroke.

How do you figure that? Being essentially a rigid structure, the boat
won't respond any differently to pressure on one foot pedal than the
other. Except when used to control a rudder, all the foot pedals do is
provide support so the paddler can resist the force of the paddle
stroke. The commonly repeated notion that one can steer a kayak by
pushing on the foot pedals is nonsense. Steering is controlled by the
paddle strokes and/or edging/leaning.

"Barry" wrote in
hlink.net:

Yes, most kayaks are rigid structures....but when you push on one pedal
only, you tend to cause the kayak to lean to one side when the paddle
stroke is on the opposite side of the foot pressure. Think about it
for a moment and you'll see what I mean. It's a potential explanation
for the steering problems, IMHO.

I think that Brian and I both understand the mechanics of applying pressure
on the footpegs while paddling. It's just that I don't think it would make
more than a trivial impact on the direction of the kayak. As I wrote, I've
done an exercise in which we paddled forward pressing with the same foot as
the paddle stroke, and then tried it pressing the opposite foot. I didn't
notice any tendancy for the boat to go off course when I was pressing with
the opposite foot and the instructor for the course that was suggesting the
exercise is one of the most accomplished expedition kayakers in the world
today.

I'm new to the sport and don't speak
from a lot of experience...but logic tells me that it could be an
explanation for steering problems. The other is that the strength of
the strokes is uneven. If you paddle hard on one side but not the
other, you slowly turn.

It might seem that way but the strength of the stroke usually doesn't affect
the direction of the kayak. Once you get up a bit of speed, unless you're
trying to maintain a sprint pace, you don't to continue to paddle hard to
keep up a decent hull speed. The difference in arm strength certainly
wouldn't make much difference since the amount of effort required from your
weakest arm is more than sufficient to keep up a good pace. What will
affect the direction to a much greater degree is the synchronicity of your
stroke. The strength of the stroke is only one aspect in achieving
identical strokes on the left and right side. There is also the length of
the stroke. For the strokes to be equal you need to put the blade in the
water the same distance from the bow on both sides and exit at the distance
as well. I'm betting that if you try paddling harder on one side that your
very likely keeping the paddle in the water longer on that side as well.
Secondly, there is the distance of the paddle away from the hull. If you've
practice a sweep stroke you'll find that it's much more effective if paddle
"draws a C" in the water so that the blade is a few feet from the boat when
it is perpendicular with the cockpit than if the blade stays close to the
boat throughout the stroke. It would seem obvious then, that if the stroke
on the right side of the boat is further away from the hull than the stroke
on the left side that you'll generate more turning motion from the stroke on
the right side. If you experiment with a sweep stroke a bit you'll find
that trying to turn the boat by pulling harder on the paddle doesn't
accomplish much and that a slow but complete sweep will turn the boat quite
nicely. Finally, the orientation of the blade will significantly impact the
power generated by the stroke and if the angle is not the same you'll
generate a much greater turning motion on one side. Typically this happens
when using a feathered paddle and failing to turn the top edge of the blade
toward you on the non-control hand side. When that happens the blade tends
to slice down and scoop water rather that push water toward the stern. That
would also tend to tilt the kayak to that side as you're bringing the paddle
the paddle out (try putting a paddle blade in the water perpendicular to the
boat and pulling it straight up and watch what happens).

Instead of trying to control the boat with brute force try slowing down the
stroke so that you can feel the effect of the length of the stroke, the
distance of the paddle from the boat, and the angle of the paddle blades.
With practice it won't take long before you can keep your strokes
synchronous and only change them intentionally when you want to effect the
direction of the boat. For example, make a normal stroke on one side, but
do a sweep on the other.

I use this as a supplement to leaning or using
a J stroke to stay on course.

Using a J stroke in a kayak is very inefficient.

I think there was an earlier post suggesting that the current or Wind were
bigger factors and I played with this on the weekend. With a tail current I
found that if I didn't keep straight in line with it, it would turn me
toward which ever side it was presented. Based on this I eased off and made
my effort in keeping down the current and presto less effort and true
running. I would imagine that weather- cocking with the wind would be the
same effect but above the water.
To ensure I wasn't situating the experiment, I tried it with a much longer
boat that tracks well and found that I didn't have the same experience,
therefore my humbel deduction is that it probably applies to all boats but
boats(Kayaks) that tend to turn more readily are more affected by current
and wind. A bold supposition but thats what I discovered. Hope this wasn't
motherhood.
Craig Cotter



"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Barry" wrote in
hlink.net:

Yes, most kayaks are rigid structures....but when you push on one pedal
only, you tend to cause the kayak to lean to one side when the paddle
stroke is on the opposite side of the foot pressure. Think about it
for a moment and you'll see what I mean. It's a potential explanation
for the steering problems, IMHO.

I think that Brian and I both understand the mechanics of applying
pressure
on the footpegs while paddling. It's just that I don't think it would
make
more than a trivial impact on the direction of the kayak. As I wrote,
I've
done an exercise in which we paddled forward pressing with the same foot
as
the paddle stroke, and then tried it pressing the opposite foot. I didn't
notice any tendancy for the boat to go off course when I was pressing with
the opposite foot and the instructor for the course that was suggesting
the
exercise is one of the most accomplished expedition kayakers in the world
today.

I'm new to the sport and don't speak
from a lot of experience...but logic tells me that it could be an
explanation for steering problems. The other is that the strength of
the strokes is uneven. If you paddle hard on one side but not the
other, you slowly turn.

It might seem that way but the strength of the stroke usually doesn't
affect
the direction of the kayak. Once you get up a bit of speed, unless you're
trying to maintain a sprint pace, you don't to continue to paddle hard to
keep up a decent hull speed. The difference in arm strength certainly
wouldn't make much difference since the amount of effort required from
your
weakest arm is more than sufficient to keep up a good pace. What will
affect the direction to a much greater degree is the synchronicity of your
stroke. The strength of the stroke is only one aspect in achieving
identical strokes on the left and right side. There is also the length of
the stroke. For the strokes to be equal you need to put the blade in the
water the same distance from the bow on both sides and exit at the
distance
as well. I'm betting that if you try paddling harder on one side that
your
very likely keeping the paddle in the water longer on that side as well.
Secondly, there is the distance of the paddle away from the hull. If
you've
practice a sweep stroke you'll find that it's much more effective if
paddle
"draws a C" in the water so that the blade is a few feet from the boat
when
it is perpendicular with the cockpit than if the blade stays close to the
boat throughout the stroke. It would seem obvious then, that if the
stroke
on the right side of the boat is further away from the hull than the
stroke
on the left side that you'll generate more turning motion from the stroke
on
the right side. If you experiment with a sweep stroke a bit you'll find
that trying to turn the boat by pulling harder on the paddle doesn't
accomplish much and that a slow but complete sweep will turn the boat
quite
nicely. Finally, the orientation of the blade will significantly impact
the
power generated by the stroke and if the angle is not the same you'll
generate a much greater turning motion on one side. Typically this
happens
when using a feathered paddle and failing to turn the top edge of the
blade
toward you on the non-control hand side. When that happens the blade
tends
to slice down and scoop water rather that push water toward the stern.
That
would also tend to tilt the kayak to that side as you're bringing the
paddle
the paddle out (try putting a paddle blade in the water perpendicular to
the
boat and pulling it straight up and watch what happens).

Instead of trying to control the boat with brute force try slowing down
the
stroke so that you can feel the effect of the length of the stroke, the
distance of the paddle from the boat, and the angle of the paddle blades.
With practice it won't take long before you can keep your strokes
synchronous and only change them intentionally when you want to effect the
direction of the boat. For example, make a normal stroke on one side, but
do a sweep on the other.

I use this as a supplement to leaning or using
a J stroke to stay on course.

Using a J stroke in a kayak is very inefficient.