Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle has
no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a search
of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
been done at some National training center, or product development
center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that Medline
doesn't cover.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or hints on who might have done this sort of
work in the past. I'd rather not re-invent the wheel, if I can maybe
work on just improving it! :-)

Thanks,
Kieran Coghlan

Kieran wrote:
I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

For swimming, one method I know of consists of a line with floats
attached to it in a pool. The swimmer then pushes his hands against the
floats with each stroke and the power for each stroke is then measured
in the floats IIRC. There ought to be a better description of this on
the web. Another method might be to just drag a kayak with a line
accross the water at paddling speed and measure the force needed to do
this, but I suspect you want some more detailed measurements. Maybe you
can combine this with a videocamera.

greetings,
Michiel

M.C.D. Roos wrote:

For swimming, one method I know of consists of a line with floats
attached to it in a pool. The swimmer then pushes his hands against the
floats with each stroke and the power for each stroke is then measured
in the floats IIRC. There ought to be a better description of this on
the web. Another method might be to just drag a kayak with a line
accross the water at paddling speed and measure the force needed to do
this, but I suspect you want some more detailed measurements. Maybe you
can combine this with a videocamera.

greetings,
Michiel

Thanks for the reply...

Yes, we've used the towing technique for determining work done by
swimmers, and have applied it to kayaks, we're also familiar with the
pushing bouys (and submerged paddles) for swimmers... but I want a more
direct measurement of the forces at the blade and the hands. Hoping to
possibly also apply this to an inverse dynamics solution of joint
reaction forces at the shoulder.

-Kieran

Ook hier aanwezig, Michiel? :-)

M.C.D. Roos wrote:

Kieran wrote:

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews
to be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and
potentiometers on the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water
rowing. So, I'm wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study
having been done on kayaking or canoeing.


For swimming, one method I know of consists of a line with floats
attached to it in a pool. The swimmer then pushes his hands against the
floats with each stroke and the power for each stroke is then measured
in the floats IIRC. There ought to be a better description of this on
the web. Another method might be to just drag a kayak with a line
accross the water at paddling speed and measure the force needed to do
this, but I suspect you want some more detailed measurements. Maybe you
can combine this with a videocamera.

greetings,
Michiel


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Kieran wrote:

Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

The obvious problem with kayaking and canoeing, is that the paddle has
no fixed pivot point, like a rowing shell does. So most likely some
sort of video kinematic analysis will be necessary. We have the
capability to set this up, although I think the physics will be
complicated (i.e. statically indeterminant problem). I've done a search
of the scientific journal literature (Medline) and haven't found any
published papers on this topic, but that doesn't mean the work hasn't
been done at some National training center, or product development
center somewhere... or that it's in a very obscure journal that Medline
doesn't cover.

google back on RSR just a couple months, someone posted
a link to a E. Euro site that did some technique vids for
kayaking - maybe there are links from there, I didn't save the link.

Kieran wrote:

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

If you just want average power generated then you could use some of the
test and model data from Sea Kayaker magazine in their kayak test
reports that shows the drag force of each boat model at various speeds.
Combine this with measured speeds of paddlers in races and it should
give an idea of the effective paddling power.

Peter wrote:


If you just want average power generated then you could use some of the
test and model data from Sea Kayaker magazine in their kayak test
reports that shows the drag force of each boat model at various speeds.
Combine this with measured speeds of paddlers in races and it should
give an idea of the effective paddling power.


Actually, we want direct measurement of force through the paddle,
applied by the paddler. This way, we can not only determine the overall
power, but also do an inverse dynamics analysis of the joint forces in
the paddler's arm and shoulder.

-Kieran

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:55:31 GMT, Kieran wrote:

Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

Kayaking is an Olympic sport, and every such sport has a wide range of
technical work done. You might get in touch with a college with a
kayaking program, or the US Olympic or Junior Olympic teams.

Seems like an opportunity for some synergy.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

"Gary S." Idontwantspam@net wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:55:31 GMT, Kieran wrote:

Hey there, sorry for the cross-post!

I might be taking on a project where we try to determine the power
(force and velocity) developed by a kayaker while paddling. I'm
wondering if anyone out there knows of any research that's been done
like this. I know that it is a fairly common thing for rowing crews to
be "instrumented" with strain guages on the oars, and potentiometers on
the oarlocks, to get force/time curves for on-water rowing. So, I'm
wondering if anyone is aware of this sort of study having been done on
kayaking or canoeing.

Kayaking is an Olympic sport, and every such sport has a wide range of
technical work done. You might get in touch with a college with a
kayaking program, or the US Olympic or Junior Olympic teams.

Seems like an opportunity for some synergy.



Wasn't there an extensive conversation here a few years back (maybe 3 or 4)
from someone who was doing his PhD thesis on this? IIRC, he had lots of data
and graphs showing where in the stroke the power was applied, and was
looking at bentshaft vs straight shaft paddles, depth of the blade, angle of
the shaft, etc. He was doing work in a pool, with sensors, flow meters, and
the like. The conversation might have branched out into different hull
materials, different types of boats, etc.

--riverman

AFAIK http://www.marinerkayaks.com
has information about this.