I am a pretty experienced canoeist (I am in my early 40's and have been
canoe tripping since I was 7 years of age) and most of my experience has
been on lakes and tame white water. I did the majority of my tripping in
Ontario (Algonquin, Temagami, Quetico, Kippawa in QC) and then moved to
Alberta where I wound up switching to hiking. I had my 30+ year old grumman
with me in Alberta but had to leave it there when we moved. In the past few
months my family and I moved to Halifax, NS and am debating canoe vs. kayak.
I have no experience with kayaks and would like to continue tripping. My
children are 8 and 10 years of age - both of whom have had some experience
kayaking up at summer camp. Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be
able to do some trips along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks.
All that backround covered, here are my questions:

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?

I know this is a lot of information but i'd appreciate some feedback.
Thanks a lot!

Shrink

On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:16:30 GMT, "Shrink"
wrote:

(snipped)

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?

Not much. Still do a canoe thing with my friends every now and then.

What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

Carrying capacity and weight capacity. A canoe of equal length to a
kayak will carry along a lot more camping goods, firewood, and
coolers. On the other hand, you'll find out, if you hadn't already,
that you don't need a lot of those heavy and space wasting things.

Kayaks give you a much more intimate feeling of the water and of
movement.

--

r.bc vixen. Minnow Goddess. Willow watcher. Often taunted by trout.

Shrink,

It's all personal preference, but for me, there is no comparison: save
your canoes for the rare times you will want them, and get into a kayak.

I started with canoes (still have a few), then went to white water
kayaking, and to sea and lake kayaking. In my opinion, kayaks are
incomparably more fun. The two drawbacks have been mentioned: it takes
two people to portage a sea kayak, and the hold less (and are harder to
pack). In my view, those are prices worth paying, and in any case, you
can carry enough for several days in a large kayak. Kayaks are much
faster, easier to paddle (the symmetrical work is a lot easier on your
body, especially as you get older), and just more fun, because you sit
at water level and experience the waves differently. I spend a good
part of each summer on a large lake, and I take my kayak out every day I
possibly can. I got in my canoe once or twice last year.

I also prefer being in a boat I can roll in a pinch, although I have
never had to roll my sea kayak and practice just to feel secure. some
people can roll canoes (if you have thigh straps), but I am not that
coordinated.

The real choice is white water or touring, not lake vs. sea. If you are
mostly going to do touring, I would get yourself boats fit for ocean
touring. They are just dandy on lakes too. A bit harder to turn
because they are generally longer, but faster and easier to handle in
rough conditions. In contrast, a short boat designed for lakes is not
really appropriate for use in open ocean. I have an Impex Assateague,
which is sea kayak nearly 18' long, and I use it mostly in a large lake.
The Assateague, by the way, is a wonderful boat.

As for single vs tandem: I've only paddled a tandem a few times. I
think they are less fun because you feel the water less, and unless you
and your partner are really slick, you are not going to learn to roll
it. However, I would give serious thought to one of I were going long
distances with a group, particularly with kids. The nice thing about a
tandem is that you can stick someone who is hurt, ill, or seasick in the
front, put a strong paddler in the back, and do a decent job of keeping
up. I took a trip years ago with an outfitter up your way (Coastal
Adventures), and at that time they often took one tandem along for that
reason.

If you decide on sea kayaks, paddle as many as you can before you make a
choice, and have your family do the same. It really is a matter of
preference and physical fit. E.g., I am moderately large (6'1", 194
pounds),which cuts down the number of boats a lot. I found that most of
the boats for my weight range had seats that were too narrow for my hips
and were very uncomfortable after 20 minutes. Other things that will
affect comfort are the position of the thigh braces, the amount of foot
room, the position of the back band, etc. We are all built differently.

Handling is to some degree also personal taste. E.g., in buying the
Assateague, I decided against a competitor with more rocker that turned
more easily; I would rather have good tracking and have to work a little
harder on turns. I also was willing to give up a little primary
stability (the assateague is narrow and not flat-bottomed) for speed and
secondary stability. If you are new to this, you might make different
choices.

Finally, there is the never-ending debate about plastic vs. glass. I
have not paddled the new plastic boats that are finished like glass and
don't recall what they are called, and I have never used a fancy kevlar
boat, but I have paddled plastic and regular glass. Glass boats do
handle better, but they cost a lot more and are much easier to damage on
rocks, etc. (They are harder to damage on the racks of your car).
Plastic is probably a reasonable place to start. Also, I would hunt for
used boats or clearances at the end of the season, particularly if you
select a common brand.

You have some truly amazing sea kayaking in your neck of the woods, so
have a great time.

Dan




Shrink wrote the following on 2/4/2006 4:16 PM:
I am a pretty experienced canoeist (I am in my early 40's and have been
canoe tripping since I was 7 years of age) and most of my experience has
been on lakes and tame white water. I did the majority of my tripping in
Ontario (Algonquin, Temagami, Quetico, Kippawa in QC) and then moved to
Alberta where I wound up switching to hiking. I had my 30+ year old grumman
with me in Alberta but had to leave it there when we moved. In the past few
months my family and I moved to Halifax, NS and am debating canoe vs. kayak.
I have no experience with kayaks and would like to continue tripping. My
children are 8 and 10 years of age - both of whom have had some experience
kayaking up at summer camp. Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be
able to do some trips along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks.
All that backround covered, here are my questions:

1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?

I know this is a lot of information but i'd appreciate some feedback.
Thanks a lot!

Shrink

Dan - thanks so much for the encouragement. You hit the nail on the head
when you pointed out the touring vs. white water distinction. While I am
not yet familiar with the inland waterways in NS, my preference is touring
on big lakes or relative calm and deep rapids (max Class II). My kids are 8
and 10 and have little experience in canoes or kayaks (around 3 canoe trips
under their belts and kayaking during one week at summer camp). I
understand that kayaks are actually more stable when it comes to the chance
of dumping because te low center of gravity and the fact that you don't have
to worry about counterbalancing the weight of the canoe and its load. I
will have to demo a few to see what I prefer. I really don't know yet what
I will be doing more of: lakes or oceans. That's simply because I don't yet
know whether there is a lot of lake tripping that can be done in NS (still
not clear whether there are loop trips that can be done or whether it is
mostly limited to one-way trips). The thing I like about the kayak idea is
that paddling upsteam won't be near as difficult.

If you have any other tips about NS paddling, i'd love to know! Thanks
again!

Shrink

Shrink--

Re class II: that adds another wrinkle. One thing I would not do with
my sea kayak is to run even class 2. The boat turns too slowly, and for
that matter, in rapids, you often have far less than 18' between rocks.

There are some hybrid boats (Prijon used to make one) that are supposed
to be OK for mild rapids, say up to class III, and touring. Never
paddled one, but my guess is that they are not wonderful for either use.
Shorter touring boats might be an option too. If you are going to
run even class 2, I would also opt for plastic. You can bounce good
plastic boats over rocks without much damage. Whitewater paddlers do it
all the time, sometimes intentionally ('boofing'). Not so fiberglass:
hit a rock and at the least you mess up the gel coat. But in any case,
you hit a blank spot in my experience. I have always run whitewater in
a plastic whitewater boat and never tried to blend the two.

As for NS paddling: you have wonderful options off the south (east?)
coast--e.g., to the northeast of Halifax. There are lots of islands and
shoals that provide reasonably protected water and beautiful scenery,
and the shoals limit motorboats. I have not tried any whitewater or
flat freshwater in NS.

You might want to check out a few short outings with one of the
established outfitters. It would give you a feel for what is around,
and in my view it is always good to start out in any new open water by
going out with people who know the area. My experience with Coastal
Adventures was very good.

Dan



Shrink wrote the following on 2/5/2006 1:46 PM:
Dan - thanks so much for the encouragement. You hit the nail on the head
when you pointed out the touring vs. white water distinction. While I am
not yet familiar with the inland waterways in NS, my preference is touring
on big lakes or relative calm and deep rapids (max Class II). My kids are 8
and 10 and have little experience in canoes or kayaks (around 3 canoe trips
under their belts and kayaking during one week at summer camp). I
understand that kayaks are actually more stable when it comes to the chance
of dumping because te low center of gravity and the fact that you don't have
to worry about counterbalancing the weight of the canoe and its load. I
will have to demo a few to see what I prefer. I really don't know yet what
I will be doing more of: lakes or oceans. That's simply because I don't yet
know whether there is a lot of lake tripping that can be done in NS (still
not clear whether there are loop trips that can be done or whether it is
mostly limited to one-way trips). The thing I like about the kayak idea is
that paddling upsteam won't be near as difficult.

If you have any other tips about NS paddling, i'd love to know! Thanks
again!

Shrink

"Shrink" wrote...
I have no experience with kayaks and would like to continue tripping. My
children are 8 and 10 years of age - both of whom have had some experience
kayaking up at summer camp. Since I am so near the ocean I would love to be
able to do some trips along the coast but realize we would need sea kayaks.
All that backround covered, here are my questions:

I had little canoeing experience when I took up kayaking a few years ago at near
age 50, but 30+ years of sailing. Now I'm getting ready to sell my last
sailboat, but keep the kayak and the Adirondack Guideboat...


1. For those ex-canoeists who are now ardent kayakers - do you miss it?
What limitations will I experience switching to kayaks vs canoes and what
advantages will I have?

A "sea" kayak will be much more seaworthy than a canoe in swells and waves.
However, a sea/touring/fla****er kayak will not be maneuverable or rugged enough
to use on river rapids. A kayak will not likely carry anywhere as much gear as
a canoe, but that need depends on your tripping habits...


2. Sea vs. river/lake kayak - with 4 of us, I envision either 2 X 2-men
kayaks or 4 single person kayaks. Should I assume that if I want to do both
sea and lake that really ought to just spring for the sea kayaks from the
outset or by lake/river kayaks and just rent when I want to do any ocean
trips? Since I don't plan on major whitewater, I am not concerned about the
maneuverability of the sea kayaks on lakes and rivers unless they are worse
than a canoe (which I doubt).

I think you will be happier with a higher-volume "sea" or "touring" kayak than a
recreational kayak. You will quickly learn to maneuver the kayak so you can
turn it in its own length. Waterline length is conducive to speed for longer
trips, as well as volume for gear-carrying ability.

I think 4 singles will be the best bet. If you are concerned about one of the
kids lagging, you can use a tow harness occasionally to help propel him/her...

3. Would you suggest 4 single kayaks, 1 double and 2 singles, 2 doubles?
Pros and cons of doubles vs. singles?

Doubles: Heavy. Many do not paddle well single-handed. May be faster due to
length, but the slowest boat will be your limiting factor. Two doubles fit on a
car top; 4 singles do not...

Singles: Maneuverable. Can be more easily "customized" for the individual
user.


4. Lastly, can anyone give some suggestions as to mid-range brands of boats
to consider/avoid and if you know of any retailers in Nova Scotia?

I built mine (Pygmy Coho) from a kit. Pygmy and Chesapeake Light Craft may be
the 2 best known kit builders in the US, but there are others. Epoxy over
plywood is actually stronger and lighter than fiberglass or rotomolded plastic,
and there is a certain satisfaction in the building process... You may also
find a few used ones on the market, and either of those companies will build it
for you (for a price...).

On 5-Feb-2006, "John Weiss" wrote:

Two doubles fit on a car top; 4 singles do not...

I've seen four singles on a cartop using J saddles. It can be done. You'll need a
vehicle that can handle a long crossbar though.

May be faster due to length

Doubles can be faster because they have two paddlers. Length is not the great
contributor to speed in spite of common misconceptions. Doubles are only a
few feet longer but may be over 50% wider.

Mike

Hi Shrink. You are facing what I faced about 6 years ago. I loved my
canoeing, having done several Ontario trips. I studied solo canoeing
at my summer camp for two years and got quite far with it. I highly
enjoy a canoe and what it brings. I also have traveled in a Grumman on
a 7 day trip.

My buddy insisted I try kayaks, and thankfully I had an open mind about
it. I've never turned back. Kayaking offers a different experience
that has many benefits:

- faster travelling means farther tripping per day
- more agile experience in places where shallow or disturbed waters can
be increasingly approached and enjoyed
- introduction to other types of kayaking such as whitewater
- less transport challenges for kayaking, due to smaller boats
- You are much lower to the water and if you are an 'eco' person,
you'll get a kick out of being closer to the waterline

My suggestions:

Go to MEC and rent individual kayaks. They are downtown Halifax. We
used them two summers ago when we kayaked Cape Breton & Peggy's Cove.
Two areas I wouldn't have challenged in a canoe. We saw seals and
sharks. Coastal waterways just ask for kayaks, East and West. There
should be other outfitters in Halifax or NS that you could visit.

Take your tent to a camping site just South of Peggy's Cove, not 7 km
South. It will be on your left side, on the water. Park your tent
directly on the water, and paddle into Peggy's Cove, and further South,
as it gets interesting.

I've not used tandems, but I think that would be a bit limiting. We've
always had our own kayaks. We enjoy racing amongst the rocks at
Tobermory from time to time.

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=83365166&size=l

Great advice!! Thanks a lot - i'll go check out MEC and see what they have
in stock. I will also check out some of the local rental places to find out
if they are selling any of their singles.


"BeeRich" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi Shrink. You are facing what I faced about 6 years ago. I loved my
canoeing, having done several Ontario trips. I studied solo canoeing
at my summer camp for two years and got quite far with it. I highly
enjoy a canoe and what it brings. I also have traveled in a Grumman on
a 7 day trip.

My buddy insisted I try kayaks, and thankfully I had an open mind about
it. I've never turned back. Kayaking offers a different experience
that has many benefits:

- faster travelling means farther tripping per day
- more agile experience in places where shallow or disturbed waters can
be increasingly approached and enjoyed
- introduction to other types of kayaking such as whitewater
- less transport challenges for kayaking, due to smaller boats
- You are much lower to the water and if you are an 'eco' person,
you'll get a kick out of being closer to the waterline

My suggestions:

Go to MEC and rent individual kayaks. They are downtown Halifax. We
used them two summers ago when we kayaked Cape Breton & Peggy's Cove.
Two areas I wouldn't have challenged in a canoe. We saw seals and
sharks. Coastal waterways just ask for kayaks, East and West. There
should be other outfitters in Halifax or NS that you could visit.

Take your tent to a camping site just South of Peggy's Cove, not 7 km
South. It will be on your left side, on the water. Park your tent
directly on the water, and paddle into Peggy's Cove, and further South,
as it gets interesting.

I've not used tandems, but I think that would be a bit limiting. We've
always had our own kayaks. We enjoy racing amongst the rocks at
Tobermory from time to time.

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=83365166&size=l