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#11
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I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right WRT beginning paddlers. The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture about dislocations. Steve John Fereira wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote in : Davej wrote: I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been settled upon? Thanks. What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or recommending high bracing. When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support (both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU 3 star assessment. |
#12
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It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When I started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they told us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of the blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be used without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV with side kicking waves and holes. Courtney wrote in message ups.com... I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right WRT beginning paddlers. The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture about dislocations. Steve John Fereira wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote in : Davej wrote: I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been settled upon? Thanks. What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or recommending high bracing. When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support (both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU 3 star assessment. |
#13
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The extended arm exposes one of the weakest joints in the body to a lot of
risk and, worse, is a weaker position for controlling the boat. Yes, it will work (until the forces on the lever exceed the abilty of the joint to bear the stresses), but will it work better than a brace done with the elbow tucked into the top of the hip and the power side of the blade on the wave? The answer to that is absolutely not. Once the wrists go above the head, the shoulder joint actually loses both strength and flexibility. You can test this while sitting in your chair. Extend your arms fully over your head and try to slide your wrists to either side (without twisting the torso). It is almost impossible to move more that a few inches in this position. Put the wrists at shoulder height and do the same motion and, voila, your range of motion has increased considerably, from a few inches to a few feet. More importantly, the muscles have considerably more mechanical advantage from this position, so not only is the shoulder protected, you actually have more available power to apply to the paddle. Note that most of the side-to-side motion available to the shoulder joint disappears when the elbows go above the shoulder. Both flexibility and power are lost as the elbows move closer to a locked position above the shoulders. The only difference between performing a high and low brace should be the following: In a low brace, the elbows are above the paddle, and in a high brace, the elbows are below the paddle. Whether the power face of the blade is on the wave or not is more a function of the logistics of placing the paddle above or below the elbows, rather than any real change in mechanical advantage. For this reason, you could perform a high brace with the back face of the paddle, but you'd have to flip the paddle over to do it. Because it is a very visual cue, many instructors use "power face of the blade on the wave" phrasing (mine did, for example) to suggest this as the difference between a high and low brace. While it is a reasonable description of what happens visually, it is technically inaccurate and misleads the student into thinking that extending the arms is one of the goals of the high brace. I think the terms "high" and "low" are unfortunate for this reason. Rick "Courtney" wrote in message . .. It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When I started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they told us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of the blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be used without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV with side kicking waves and holes. Courtney wrote in message ups.com... I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right WRT beginning paddlers. The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture about dislocations. Steve John Fereira wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote in : Davej wrote: I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been settled upon? Thanks. What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or recommending high bracing. When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support (both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU 3 star assessment. |
#14
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Rick wrote:
The extended arm exposes one of the weakest joints in the body to a lot of risk and, worse, is a weaker position for controlling the boat. Yes, it will work (until the forces on the lever exceed the abilty of the joint to bear the stresses), but will it work better than a brace done with the elbow tucked into the top of the hip and the power side of the blade on the wave? The answer to that is absolutely not. Once the wrists go above the head, the shoulder joint actually loses both strength and flexibility. You can test this while sitting in your chair. Extend your arms fully over your head and try to slide your wrists to either side (without twisting the torso). It is almost impossible to move more that a few inches in this position. Put the wrists at shoulder height and do the same motion and, voila, your range of motion has increased considerably, from a few inches to a few feet. More importantly, the muscles have considerably more mechanical advantage from this position, so not only is the shoulder protected, you actually have more available power to apply to the paddle. Note that most of the side-to-side motion available to the shoulder joint disappears when the elbows go above the shoulder. Both flexibility and power are lost as the elbows move closer to a locked position above the shoulders. The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves (sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat. Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my torso. This is about as far from the ACA/BCU high brace technique as one can get and I don't claim that it's safe, but it's saved my ass from getting slammed into rocks a couple of times. |
#15
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I can tell you from unpleasant experience that Rick is right on the
money: the shoulder is a very unstable joint, and you have very little strength when your arm is extended. And there is another issue too, I think: the more your arm is extended, the greater the leverage on the joint. The result is that it is very hard to keep your shoulder parts where they belong if you encounter substantial force when your arm is extended. And when you don't keep them where they belong, the joint is not a forgiving one. I learned this the hard way, in a whitewater accident (not a high brace) that forced me to have rotator cuff decompression surgery and weeks of PT, after a year of painful efforts to solve the problem without surgery. Maybe there are times when an elbow-down high brace doesn't work. But it is really worth keeping your shoulder protected whenever you can, with whatever form works for you. Brian Nystrom wrote the following on 8/7/2006 5:55 PM: Rick wrote: The extended arm exposes one of the weakest joints in the body to a lot of risk and, worse, is a weaker position for controlling the boat. Yes, it will work (until the forces on the lever exceed the abilty of the joint to bear the stresses), but will it work better than a brace done with the elbow tucked into the top of the hip and the power side of the blade on the wave? The answer to that is absolutely not. Once the wrists go above the head, the shoulder joint actually loses both strength and flexibility. You can test this while sitting in your chair. Extend your arms fully over your head and try to slide your wrists to either side (without twisting the torso). It is almost impossible to move more that a few inches in this position. Put the wrists at shoulder height and do the same motion and, voila, your range of motion has increased considerably, from a few inches to a few feet. More importantly, the muscles have considerably more mechanical advantage from this position, so not only is the shoulder protected, you actually have more available power to apply to the paddle. Note that most of the side-to-side motion available to the shoulder joint disappears when the elbows go above the shoulder. Both flexibility and power are lost as the elbows move closer to a locked position above the shoulders. The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves (sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat. Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my torso. This is about as far from the ACA/BCU high brace technique as one can get and I don't claim that it's safe, but it's saved my ass from getting slammed into rocks a couple of times. |
#16
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posted to rec.boats.paddle.touring
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....stuff deleted
The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves (sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat. Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my torso. You can effectively do what I feel is a much safer move in that situation. With the elbows low, you plant the blade into the wave face, placing the blade at a 45 (or so) degree angle (I've never pulled out a protractor to measure it for some reason ![]() taking a normal stroke. This provides both forward and downward thrust as you brace on the wave. As the wave breaks over and you continue the pull, the bow breaks through the wave on the far side first and the boat quickly turns and pops out the other side. Its a lot of fun to do, by the way. I've done this in rocky areas with dumping surf and not been pounded on the rocks. And this move I've never seen described in any of the classic brace procedures, either. It works for me, anyway. I haven't yet "bongo-slid" out of control doing this (in fact, I started doing it after getting tired of being bounced sideways toward shore for hundreds of feet). I imagine that I do side slip somewhat with this move, but I don't believe it is ever more than a few feet (and yes, when paddling in or near rocks, I'll acknowledge that inches can be important). Actually, it seems to me that, in rereading your description, we aren't as far different in technique as I first thought. I think you can do the same move you describe with a lower brace and just simply add the paddle angle and pull I described. This stops the side-slipping and has the same end result - you end facing the next wave bow-on. Rick |
#17
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posted to rec.boats.paddle.touring
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....more info added below
"Rick" wrote in message m... ...stuff deleted The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves (sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat. Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my torso. You can effectively do what I feel is a much safer move in that situation. With the elbows low, you plant the blade into the wave face, placing the blade at a 45 (or so) degree angle (I've never pulled out a protractor to measure it for some reason ![]() taking a normal stroke. This provides both forward and downward thrust as you brace on the wave. As the wave breaks over and you continue the pull, the bow breaks through the wave on the far side first and the boat quickly turns and pops out the other side. Its a lot of fun to do, by the way. I've done this in rocky areas with dumping surf and not been pounded on the rocks. And this move I've never seen described in any of the classic brace procedures, either. It works for me, anyway. I haven't yet "bongo-slid" out of control doing this (in fact, I started doing it after getting tired of being bounced sideways toward shore for hundreds of feet). I imagine that I do side slip somewhat with this move, but I don't believe it is ever more than a few feet (and yes, when paddling in or near rocks, I'll acknowledge that inches can be important). Actually, it seems to me that, in rereading your description, we aren't as far different in technique as I first thought. I think you can do the same move you describe with a lower brace and just simply add the paddle angle and pull I described. This stops the side-slipping and has the same end result - you end facing the next wave bow-on. Rick I should have added that when you do this (for lack of a better phrase, "moving brace") it feels very unusual. Initially, it feels almost like the boat becomes sluggish and heavy (probably due to the weight of water falling on the boat), but after a few seconds, it begins to rise as the bow starts to penetrate the back side of the wave. Once it does, though, the boat spins in place like a compass needle. It turns so quickly, the first time I did this, I was shocked to find myself facing straight back out toward sea. So don't panic or fret if it seems the boat won't respond at first, the rewards of staying with this move are tremendous. Rick |
#18
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Rick wrote:
...more info added below "Rick" wrote in message m... ...stuff deleted The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves (sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat. Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my torso. You can effectively do what I feel is a much safer move in that situation. With the elbows low, you plant the blade into the wave face, placing the blade at a 45 (or so) degree angle (I've never pulled out a protractor to measure it for some reason ![]() taking a normal stroke. This provides both forward and downward thrust as you brace on the wave. As the wave breaks over and you continue the pull, the bow breaks through the wave on the far side first and the boat quickly turns and pops out the other side. Its a lot of fun to do, by the way. I've done this in rocky areas with dumping surf and not been pounded on the rocks. And this move I've never seen described in any of the classic brace procedures, either. It works for me, anyway. I haven't yet "bongo-slid" out of control doing this (in fact, I started doing it after getting tired of being bounced sideways toward shore for hundreds of feet). I imagine that I do side slip somewhat with this move, but I don't believe it is ever more than a few feet (and yes, when paddling in or near rocks, I'll acknowledge that inches can be important). Actually, it seems to me that, in rereading your description, we aren't as far different in technique as I first thought. I think you can do the same move you describe with a lower brace and just simply add the paddle angle and pull I described. This stops the side-slipping and has the same end result - you end facing the next wave bow-on. Rick I should have added that when you do this (for lack of a better phrase, "moving brace") it feels very unusual. Initially, it feels almost like the boat becomes sluggish and heavy (probably due to the weight of water falling on the boat), but after a few seconds, it begins to rise as the bow starts to penetrate the back side of the wave. Once it does, though, the boat spins in place like a compass needle. It turns so quickly, the first time I did this, I was shocked to find myself facing straight back out toward sea. So don't panic or fret if it seems the boat won't respond at first, the rewards of staying with this move are tremendous. Rick I'll have to give that a try sometime. |
#19
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If you're talking about me ("You talking about ME?"), I never said
anything about the ACA and elbow up/arm extended braces. I quoted the ACA documents for Level 3 and 4 coastal kayak assessments that state that paddlers should be able to do both high and low braces. This is for coastal kayak, not WW (rec.boats.paddle.touring, right?). When you're broached and bracing into a 3 foot breaker, a low brace really doesn't work as well as a well-tucked high brace. And yes, extend your arm in that situation and they may be carting you off to the ER. Now I'm wondering, did the ACA ever "encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended)" or are we chasing a chimera? Steve Courtney wrote: It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When I started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they told us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of the blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be used without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV with side kicking waves and holes. Courtney wrote in message ups.com... I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right WRT beginning paddlers. The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture about dislocations. Steve John Fereira wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote in : Davej wrote: I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been settled upon? Thanks. What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or recommending high bracing. When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support (both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU 3 star assessment. |
#20
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I wasn't talking about you I just noticed that a variety of people weren't
aware and I was talking in general. Since I do both sea and whitewater kayaking I cruise both newsgroups. I took an ACA instructor coarse for sea kayaking about 4 years ago and again was taught to keep my elbow low on a high brace. I mentioned the whitewater class since it was 10+ years ago and just thought it was widely taught now a days. Since I learned the "elbow down" high brace in both classes I was surprised to hear that it was still being taught with the arm extended. When I started kayaking some years ago I was originally taught to extend my arm in a high brace. It took a while to change that but after tearing my rotator cuff three times I finally learned. Some people never have a problem with it. I guess I was one of the unlucky one's. Courtney wrote in message ups.com... If you're talking about me ("You talking about ME?"), I never said anything about the ACA and elbow up/arm extended braces. I quoted the ACA documents for Level 3 and 4 coastal kayak assessments that state that paddlers should be able to do both high and low braces. This is for coastal kayak, not WW (rec.boats.paddle.touring, right?). When you're broached and bracing into a 3 foot breaker, a low brace really doesn't work as well as a well-tucked high brace. And yes, extend your arm in that situation and they may be carting you off to the ER. Now I'm wondering, did the ACA ever "encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended)" or are we chasing a chimera? Steve Courtney wrote: It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When I started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they told us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of the blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be used without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV with side kicking waves and holes. Courtney wrote in message ups.com... I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right WRT beginning paddlers. The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture about dislocations. Steve John Fereira wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote in : Davej wrote: I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been settled upon? Thanks. What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or recommending high bracing. When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support (both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU 3 star assessment. |
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