Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been
settled upon? Thanks.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines
now been settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer
teaching or recommending high bracing.

Seriously? What about guidelines for side skulling?

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.

Courtney

"Davej" wrote in message
ups.com...
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines
now been settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer
teaching or recommending high bracing.

Seriously? What about guidelines for side skulling?

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.

So why not just use a high brace with the elbow down? A low brace on a wave
that's shoulder high is not exactly realistic.

I don't think that throwing a good brace away just because there's a risk is a
good plan. I've seen lots of instructors teach a high brace with elbows tight
to the side. Even the Duffek is taught with top arm in front of the body. I
teach side sculls and running draws with the arm in front of the body too. All
these approaches minimize risk to the shoulder. As a paddler with bad
shoulders, I wouldn't do these things if I though they would be a problem.

This sounds like a liability fear more than good instruction policy. "First we
kill all the lawyers..."

Mike

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.

Courtney

I'm getting the impression that the guideline is to try to hide your
pits.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Michael Daly wrote:
Courtney wrote:

It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.


So why not just use a high brace with the elbow down? A low brace on a
wave that's shoulder high is not exactly realistic.

I don't think that throwing a good brace away just because there's a
risk is a good plan. I've seen lots of instructors teach a high brace
with elbows tight to the side. Even the Duffek is taught with top arm
in front of the body. I teach side sculls and running draws with the
arm in front of the body too. All these approaches minimize risk to the
shoulder. As a paddler with bad shoulders, I wouldn't do these things
if I though they would be a problem.

This sounds like a liability fear more than good instruction policy.

I don't doubt that at all.

Personally, I use whatever technique works, whether it's "recommended"
or "approved" by anyone is irrelevent to me. I'm sure that some of the
bracing techniques I've used in big (~6') breaking waves would make an
ACA/BCU instructor choke, but they've saved my ass from potentially
dangerous side-surfing situations and I never felt any strain on my
shoulders. To me, it's a question of which is a bigger risk.

"First we kill all the lawyers..."

Of course! ;-)

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
news:E0Azg.19239$QA1.3117@trndny05...
Michael Daly wrote:
Courtney wrote:

It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.


So why not just use a high brace with the elbow down? A low brace on a
wave that's shoulder high is not exactly realistic.

I don't think that throwing a good brace away just because there's a
risk is a good plan. I've seen lots of instructors teach a high brace
with elbows tight to the side. Even the Duffek is taught with top arm
in front of the body. I teach side sculls and running draws with the
arm in front of the body too. All these approaches minimize risk to the
shoulder. As a paddler with bad shoulders, I wouldn't do these things
if I though they would be a problem.

This sounds like a liability fear more than good instruction policy.

I don't doubt that at all.

Personally, I use whatever technique works, whether it's "recommended"
or "approved" by anyone is irrelevent to me. I'm sure that some of the
bracing techniques I've used in big (~6') breaking waves would make an
ACA/BCU instructor choke, but they've saved my ass from potentially
dangerous side-surfing situations and I never felt any strain on my
shoulders. To me, it's a question of which is a bigger risk.

I use whatever I need to use as well, however, I try to avoid using a high
brace since I tore my rotator cuff some time back doing one. It's whatever
works at the time.

Courtney

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Brian Nystrom wrote in news:Fdmzg.1101$eG.206
@trndny08:

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU
3 star assessment.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in news:Fdmzg.1101$eG.206
@trndny08:


Davej wrote:

I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been
settled upon? Thanks.


What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.


When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU
3 star assessment.

AFAIK, it was this year.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the BCU
3 star assessment.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When I
started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they told
us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why
they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still
called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of the
blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be used
without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this
thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV
with side kicking waves and holes.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now
been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for
support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the
BCU
3 star assessment.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

The extended arm exposes one of the weakest joints in the body to a lot of
risk and, worse, is a weaker position for controlling the boat. Yes, it will
work (until the forces on the lever exceed the abilty of the joint to bear
the stresses), but will it work better than a brace done with the elbow
tucked into the top of the hip and the power side of the blade on the wave?
The answer to that is absolutely not.

Once the wrists go above the head, the shoulder joint actually loses both
strength and flexibility. You can test this while sitting in your chair.
Extend your arms fully over your head and try to slide your wrists to either
side (without twisting the torso). It is almost impossible to move more that
a few inches in this position. Put the wrists at shoulder height and do the
same motion and, voila, your range of motion has increased considerably,
from a few inches to a few feet. More importantly, the muscles have
considerably more mechanical advantage from this position, so not only is
the shoulder protected, you actually have more available power to apply to
the paddle. Note that most of the side-to-side motion available to the
shoulder joint disappears when the elbows go above the shoulder. Both
flexibility and power are lost as the elbows move closer to a locked
position above the shoulders.

The only difference between performing a high and low brace should be the
following:

In a low brace, the elbows are above the paddle, and in a high brace, the
elbows are below the paddle.

Whether the power face of the blade is on the wave or not is more a function
of the logistics of placing the paddle above or below the elbows, rather
than any real change in mechanical advantage. For this reason, you could
perform a high brace with the back face of the paddle, but you'd have to
flip the paddle over to do it. Because it is a very visual cue, many
instructors use "power face of the blade on the wave" phrasing (mine did,
for example) to suggest this as the difference between a high and low brace.
While it is a reasonable description of what happens visually, it is
technically inaccurate and misleads the student into thinking that extending
the arms is one of the goals of the high brace.

I think the terms "high" and "low" are unfortunate for this reason.

Rick

"Courtney" wrote in message
. ..
It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When
I
started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they
told
us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why
they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still
called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of
the
blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be
used
without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this
thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV
with side kicking waves and holes.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now
been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for
support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the
BCU
3 star assessment.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Rick wrote:
The extended arm exposes one of the weakest joints in the body to a lot of
risk and, worse, is a weaker position for controlling the boat. Yes, it will
work (until the forces on the lever exceed the abilty of the joint to bear
the stresses), but will it work better than a brace done with the elbow
tucked into the top of the hip and the power side of the blade on the wave?
The answer to that is absolutely not.

Once the wrists go above the head, the shoulder joint actually loses both
strength and flexibility. You can test this while sitting in your chair.
Extend your arms fully over your head and try to slide your wrists to either
side (without twisting the torso). It is almost impossible to move more that
a few inches in this position. Put the wrists at shoulder height and do the
same motion and, voila, your range of motion has increased considerably,
from a few inches to a few feet. More importantly, the muscles have
considerably more mechanical advantage from this position, so not only is
the shoulder protected, you actually have more available power to apply to
the paddle. Note that most of the side-to-side motion available to the
shoulder joint disappears when the elbows go above the shoulder. Both
flexibility and power are lost as the elbows move closer to a locked
position above the shoulders.

The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak
use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless
bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves
(sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where
the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my
position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it
into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I
end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat.
Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be
upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there
is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in
inline with my torso.

This is about as far from the ACA/BCU high brace technique as one can
get and I don't claim that it's safe, but it's saved my ass from getting
slammed into rocks a couple of times.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

I can tell you from unpleasant experience that Rick is right on the
money: the shoulder is a very unstable joint, and you have very little
strength when your arm is extended. And there is another issue too, I
think: the more your arm is extended, the greater the leverage on the
joint. The result is that it is very hard to keep your shoulder parts
where they belong if you encounter substantial force when your arm is
extended. And when you don't keep them where they belong, the joint is
not a forgiving one. I learned this the hard way, in a whitewater
accident (not a high brace) that forced me to have rotator cuff
decompression surgery and weeks of PT, after a year of painful efforts
to solve the problem without surgery.

Maybe there are times when an elbow-down high brace doesn't work. But
it is really worth keeping your shoulder protected whenever you can,
with whatever form works for you.



Brian Nystrom wrote the following on 8/7/2006 5:55 PM:
Rick wrote:
The extended arm exposes one of the weakest joints in the body to a
lot of risk and, worse, is a weaker position for controlling the boat.
Yes, it will work (until the forces on the lever exceed the abilty of
the joint to bear the stresses), but will it work better than a brace
done with the elbow tucked into the top of the hip and the power side
of the blade on the wave? The answer to that is absolutely not.

Once the wrists go above the head, the shoulder joint actually loses
both strength and flexibility. You can test this while sitting in your
chair. Extend your arms fully over your head and try to slide your
wrists to either side (without twisting the torso). It is almost
impossible to move more that a few inches in this position. Put the
wrists at shoulder height and do the same motion and, voila, your
range of motion has increased considerably, from a few inches to a few
feet. More importantly, the muscles have considerably more mechanical
advantage from this position, so not only is the shoulder protected,
you actually have more available power to apply to the paddle. Note
that most of the side-to-side motion available to the shoulder joint
disappears when the elbows go above the shoulder. Both flexibility and
power are lost as the elbows move closer to a locked position above
the shoulders.

The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak
use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless
bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves
(sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where
the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my
position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it
into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I
end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat.
Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be
upright again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there
is very little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in
inline with my torso.

This is about as far from the ACA/BCU high brace technique as one can
get and I don't claim that it's safe, but it's saved my ass from getting
slammed into rocks a couple of times.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

....stuff deleted

The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak
use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless
bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves
(sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where
the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my
position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it
into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I
end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat.
Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright
again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very
little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my
torso.

You can effectively do what I feel is a much safer move in that situation.
With the elbows low, you plant the blade into the wave face, placing the
blade at a 45 (or so) degree angle (I've never pulled out a protractor to
measure it for some reason :) ). Set the brace and pull as though you are
taking a normal stroke. This provides both forward and downward thrust as
you brace on the wave. As the wave breaks over and you continue the pull,
the bow breaks through the wave on the far side first and the boat quickly
turns and pops out the other side. Its a lot of fun to do, by the way. I've
done this in rocky areas with dumping surf and not been pounded on the
rocks. And this move I've never seen described in any of the classic brace
procedures, either. It works for me, anyway. I haven't yet "bongo-slid" out
of control doing this (in fact, I started doing it after getting tired of
being bounced sideways toward shore for hundreds of feet). I imagine that I
do side slip somewhat with this move, but I don't believe it is ever more
than a few feet (and yes, when paddling in or near rocks, I'll acknowledge
that inches can be important).

Actually, it seems to me that, in rereading your description, we aren't as
far different in technique as I first thought. I think you can do the same
move you describe with a lower brace and just simply add the paddle angle
and pull I described. This stops the side-slipping and has the same end
result - you end facing the next wave bow-on.

Rick

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

....more info added below

"Rick" wrote in message
m...
...stuff deleted

The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak
use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless
bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves
(sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where
the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my
position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it
into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I
end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat.
Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright
again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very
little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my
torso.

You can effectively do what I feel is a much safer move in that situation.
With the elbows low, you plant the blade into the wave face, placing the
blade at a 45 (or so) degree angle (I've never pulled out a protractor to
measure it for some reason :) ). Set the brace and pull as though you are
taking a normal stroke. This provides both forward and downward thrust as
you brace on the wave. As the wave breaks over and you continue the pull,
the bow breaks through the wave on the far side first and the boat quickly
turns and pops out the other side. Its a lot of fun to do, by the way.
I've done this in rocky areas with dumping surf and not been pounded on
the rocks. And this move I've never seen described in any of the classic
brace procedures, either. It works for me, anyway. I haven't yet
"bongo-slid" out of control doing this (in fact, I started doing it after
getting tired of being bounced sideways toward shore for hundreds of
feet). I imagine that I do side slip somewhat with this move, but I don't
believe it is ever more than a few feet (and yes, when paddling in or near
rocks, I'll acknowledge that inches can be important).

Actually, it seems to me that, in rereading your description, we aren't as
far different in technique as I first thought. I think you can do the same
move you describe with a lower brace and just simply add the paddle angle
and pull I described. This stops the side-slipping and has the same end
result - you end facing the next wave bow-on.

Rick

I should have added that when you do this (for lack of a better phrase,
"moving brace") it feels very unusual. Initially, it feels almost like the
boat becomes sluggish and heavy (probably due to the weight of water falling
on the boat), but after a few seconds, it begins to rise as the bow starts
to penetrate the back side of the wave. Once it does, though, the boat spins
in place like a compass needle. It turns so quickly, the first time I did
this, I was shocked to find myself facing straight back out toward sea. So
don't panic or fret if it seems the boat won't respond at first, the rewards
of staying with this move are tremendous.

Rick

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Rick wrote:
...more info added below

"Rick" wrote in message
m...

...stuff deleted

The problem with this is that it's very limiting (I'm talking sea kayak
use here). It's useless on beam waves much above head height unless
bongo-sliding out of control is your idea of a good time in big waves
(sure, sometimes it's a blast, but not on rocky coast or in areas where
the waves are dumping). What I prefer to do if I want to maintain my
position is to reach up, pierce the wave face with the paddle and dig it
into the back side of the wave. I let the boat flow with the wave and I
end up essentially horizontal as the wave crest passes under the boat.
Once the wave releases the boat, it only takes a quick snap to be upright
again. Although my arms are extended during this maneuver, there is very
little stress on them or my shoulders and what there is in inline with my
torso.

You can effectively do what I feel is a much safer move in that situation.
With the elbows low, you plant the blade into the wave face, placing the
blade at a 45 (or so) degree angle (I've never pulled out a protractor to
measure it for some reason :) ). Set the brace and pull as though you are
taking a normal stroke. This provides both forward and downward thrust as
you brace on the wave. As the wave breaks over and you continue the pull,
the bow breaks through the wave on the far side first and the boat quickly
turns and pops out the other side. Its a lot of fun to do, by the way.
I've done this in rocky areas with dumping surf and not been pounded on
the rocks. And this move I've never seen described in any of the classic
brace procedures, either. It works for me, anyway. I haven't yet
"bongo-slid" out of control doing this (in fact, I started doing it after
getting tired of being bounced sideways toward shore for hundreds of
feet). I imagine that I do side slip somewhat with this move, but I don't
believe it is ever more than a few feet (and yes, when paddling in or near
rocks, I'll acknowledge that inches can be important).

Actually, it seems to me that, in rereading your description, we aren't as
far different in technique as I first thought. I think you can do the same
move you describe with a lower brace and just simply add the paddle angle
and pull I described. This stops the side-slipping and has the same end
result - you end facing the next wave bow-on.

Rick


I should have added that when you do this (for lack of a better phrase,
"moving brace") it feels very unusual. Initially, it feels almost like the
boat becomes sluggish and heavy (probably due to the weight of water falling
on the boat), but after a few seconds, it begins to rise as the bow starts
to penetrate the back side of the wave. Once it does, though, the boat spins
in place like a compass needle. It turns so quickly, the first time I did
this, I was shocked to find myself facing straight back out toward sea. So
don't panic or fret if it seems the boat won't respond at first, the rewards
of staying with this move are tremendous.

Rick

I'll have to give that a try sometime.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

If you're talking about me ("You talking about ME?"), I never said
anything about the ACA and elbow up/arm extended braces. I quoted the
ACA documents for Level 3 and 4 coastal kayak assessments that state
that paddlers should be able to do both high and low braces. This is
for coastal kayak, not WW (rec.boats.paddle.touring, right?). When
you're broached and bracing into a 3 foot breaker, a low brace really
doesn't work as well as a well-tucked high brace. And yes, extend your
arm in that situation and they may be carting you off to the ER.

Now I'm wondering, did the ACA ever "encourage a high braces with the
elbow up (or arm extended)" or are we chasing a chimera?

Steve

Courtney wrote:
It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore. When I
started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they told
us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder why
they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer still
called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of the
blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be used
without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this
thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV
with side kicking waves and holes.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines now
been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for
support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for the
BCU
3 star assessment.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

I wasn't talking about you I just noticed that a variety of people weren't
aware and I was talking in general. Since I do both sea and whitewater
kayaking I cruise both newsgroups. I took an ACA instructor coarse for sea
kayaking about 4 years ago and again was taught to keep my elbow low on a
high brace. I mentioned the whitewater class since it was 10+ years ago and
just thought it was widely taught now a days. Since I learned the "elbow
down" high brace in both classes I was surprised to hear that it was still
being taught with the arm extended. When I started kayaking some years ago
I was originally taught to extend my arm in a high brace. It took a while
to change that but after tearing my rotator cuff three times I finally
learned. Some people never have a problem with it. I guess I was one of
the unlucky one's.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
If you're talking about me ("You talking about ME?"), I never said
anything about the ACA and elbow up/arm extended braces. I quoted the
ACA documents for Level 3 and 4 coastal kayak assessments that state
that paddlers should be able to do both high and low braces. This is
for coastal kayak, not WW (rec.boats.paddle.touring, right?). When
you're broached and bracing into a 3 foot breaker, a low brace really
doesn't work as well as a well-tucked high brace. And yes, extend your
arm in that situation and they may be carting you off to the ER.

Now I'm wondering, did the ACA ever "encourage a high braces with the
elbow up (or arm extended)" or are we chasing a chimera?

Steve

Courtney wrote:
It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore.
When I
started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they
told
us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder
why
they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer
still
called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside of
the
blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be
used
without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this
thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III / IV
with side kicking waves and holes.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and
low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long
lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines
now
been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching
or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace for
support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required for
the
BCU
3 star assessment.

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.

Courtney


Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Bracing with the back face is part of the definition of a low brace. I
can't see how you would do it otherwise.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.

Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Ok, maybe I'm wrong to think of the front side to be the "back" side.


wrote:
Bracing with the back face is part of the definition of a low brace. I
can't see how you would do it otherwise.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.

Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

As Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose
it to mean--neither more nor less." Then again, HD is now an omelet.

Paddles have two faces, the power face, that pushes against the water
and makes the boat go forwards, and is often concave; and the back face,
which is the other one. There is no front face.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm wrong to think of the front side to be the "back" side.


wrote:
Bracing with the back face is part of the definition of a low brace. I
can't see how you would do it otherwise.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.
Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?



--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Ok, I like your terminology better. I am confused about the face that
is positioned downward for skulling. I presumed that a cupped blade
shape would make the "back" side better for this (power side up), but I
was then told by an experienced local that the "power side" should be
downward. For a cupped blade this seems wrong to me.


Steve Cramer wrote:
As Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose
it to mean--neither more nor less." Then again, HD is now an omelet.

Paddles have two faces, the power face, that pushes against the water
and makes the boat go forwards, and is often concave; and the back face,
which is the other one. There is no front face.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm wrong to think of the front side to be the "back" side.


wrote:
Bracing with the back face is part of the definition of a low brace. I
can't see how you would do it otherwise.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.
Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?



--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Personally I would just do whichever one's come easier and more comfortable
to you as long as you keep your elbow low and your shoulder guarded.

Courtney


"Davej" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ok, I like your terminology better. I am confused about the face that
is positioned downward for skulling. I presumed that a cupped blade
shape would make the "back" side better for this (power side up), but I
was then told by an experienced local that the "power side" should be
downward. For a cupped blade this seems wrong to me.


Steve Cramer wrote:
As Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose
it to mean--neither more nor less." Then again, HD is now an omelet.

Paddles have two faces, the power face, that pushes against the water
and makes the boat go forwards, and is often concave; and the back face,
which is the other one. There is no front face.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm wrong to think of the front side to be the "back" side.


wrote:
Bracing with the back face is part of the definition of a low brace.
I
can't see how you would do it otherwise.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down
and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.
Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?



--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Seems to me that we have two conversations mixed together: how to do
effective bracing, and how to protect your shoulder.

There are much better paddlers than I am in this discussion, but it
seems to me that the reasons to use the back face in a low brace have
nothing to do with shoulders. One reason is that with a feathered
paddle, it is nearly impossible to use the power face because to do so,
you would have to bend your control wrist to an extraordinary angle.
In a high brace, you can do some of this rotation with your control arm.
The second reason is that it is hard to scull with the concave paddle
face facing down. The blade bites and submerges.

The answer to the second question is much simpler: the more your arm is
extended, the more leverage there is on your shoulder, and the more
likely you are to screw it up. Rotating your paddle is not going to
help much. And trust those of us who have made this mistake--you don't
want to. You may be lucky, but if you end up being unlucky, the price
is high.




Steve Cramer wrote the following on 8/20/2006 9:53 AM:
As Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose
it to mean--neither more nor less." Then again, HD is now an omelet.

Paddles have two faces, the power face, that pushes against the water
and makes the boat go forwards, and is often concave; and the back face,
which is the other one. There is no front face.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm wrong to think of the front side to be the "back" side.


wrote:
Bracing with the back face is part of the definition of a low brace. I
can't see how you would do it otherwise.

Steve

Davej wrote:
Courtney wrote:
It is encouraged that a low brace is used by keeping the elbow down
and
using the back side of the paddle blade to skull.
Does the ACA actually suggest using the back side of the paddle?

Avoiding shoulder injury during high brace
 

Dan Koretz wrote:

One reason is that with a feathered
paddle, it is nearly impossible to use the power face because to do so,
you would have to bend your control wrist to an extraordinary angle.

Actually, it has nothing to do with feather. What you say applies equally well
to unfeathered paddles. If your elbow is below the paddle, the power face
points down. If above, the power face is up. Hence, in the first case you use
the power face, in the second, you use the back face.

The second reason is that it is hard to scull with the concave paddle
face facing down. The blade bites and submerges.

It sounds like you need to practice sculling. It is equally easy with both
faces of the blade. If the blade is diving, you're not controlling the paddle
properly. Don't use a "control hand" - use the hand closest to the blade to
control the blade. Your "control hand" applies only to forward paddling.

The answer to the second question is much simpler: the more your arm is
extended, the more leverage there is on your shoulder, and the more
likely you are to screw it up.

One forgotten way to minimize these problems is paddle extension. Don't reach
with your arm - slide the paddle blade out and keep the arm in.

Mike