One other thing. I'm confused about you mentioning that you didn't say
anything about the ACA but were rather speaking of the ACA documents. It
seems that if they're teaching it one way that the documents would read the
same. It sounds like they need to do some updating unless they're just
mentioned the words "low brace" and "high brace" with no descriptions
attached to them. The way I understand it is a low brace is with the elbow
up and a high brace with the elbow down and you always want to stay in the
box. Reaching up high would take your arm out of the box.

Courtney

"Courtney" wrote in message news:...
I wasn't talking about you I just noticed that a variety of people
weren't
aware and I was talking in general. Since I do both sea and whitewater
kayaking I cruise both newsgroups. I took an ACA instructor coarse for
sea
kayaking about 4 years ago and again was taught to keep my elbow low on a
high brace. I mentioned the whitewater class since it was 10+ years ago
and
just thought it was widely taught now a days. Since I learned the "elbow
down" high brace in both classes I was surprised to hear that it was still
being taught with the arm extended. When I started kayaking some years
ago
I was originally taught to extend my arm in a high brace. It took a while
to change that but after tearing my rotator cuff three times I finally
learned. Some people never have a problem with it. I guess I was one of
the unlucky one's.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
If you're talking about me ("You talking about ME?"), I never said
anything about the ACA and elbow up/arm extended braces. I quoted the
ACA documents for Level 3 and 4 coastal kayak assessments that state
that paddlers should be able to do both high and low braces. This is
for coastal kayak, not WW (rec.boats.paddle.touring, right?). When
you're broached and bracing into a 3 foot breaker, a low brace really
doesn't work as well as a well-tucked high brace. And yes, extend your
arm in that situation and they may be carting you off to the ER.

Now I'm wondering, did the ACA ever "encourage a high braces with the
elbow up (or arm extended)" or are we chasing a chimera?

Steve

Courtney wrote:
It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA
doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore.
When I
started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they
told
us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder
why
they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer
still
called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside
of
the
blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be
used
without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this
thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III /
IV
with side kicking waves and holes.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is
out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and
low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be
right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long
lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines
now
been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching
or
recommending high bracing.

When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace
for
support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required
for
the
BCU
3 star assessment.

As I said, I was quoting from the ACA Level 3 and 4 Assessment standards
(you could look it up, it's right he
http://www.acanet.org/pdf/CKLevel3.pdf), which simply state that a
paddler must be able to demonstrate both a low and a high brace. I can't
find anything on the ACA site that tells in detail how to do a high
brace, but I can't find anything that explains a forward touring stroke,
either, so that doesn't mean anything.

As to the question of whether the ACA is teaching extended arm bracing
"anymore," I direct your attention to page 49 of Laurie Gullion's
_Canoeing and Kayaking Instruction Manual_. I know you have a copy of
it. There is a picture of a kayaker doing an elbows-tucked-in "low high
brace." That book was published by the ACA in 1987. That's, um, almost
20 years ago, which suggests that extended arm bracing was never
recommended. Perhaps there is evidence to the contrary, but I can't find it.

You said you were originally taught to extend a high brace and tore up
your shoulder three times. That's too bad. I think that 10+ years ago we
didn't realize the hazards as well as we do now. I know I'm much more
explicit with my students about where to place their elbows than I
recall having been instructed.

Steve

Courtney wrote:
One other thing. I'm confused about you mentioning that you didn't say
anything about the ACA but were rather speaking of the ACA documents. It
seems that if they're teaching it one way that the documents would read the
same. It sounds like they need to do some updating unless they're just
mentioned the words "low brace" and "high brace" with no descriptions
attached to them. The way I understand it is a low brace is with the elbow
up and a high brace with the elbow down and you always want to stay in the
box. Reaching up high would take your arm out of the box.

Courtney

"Courtney" wrote in message news:...
I wasn't talking about you I just noticed that a variety of people
weren't
aware and I was talking in general. Since I do both sea and whitewater
kayaking I cruise both newsgroups. I took an ACA instructor coarse for
sea
kayaking about 4 years ago and again was taught to keep my elbow low on a
high brace. I mentioned the whitewater class since it was 10+ years ago
and
just thought it was widely taught now a days. Since I learned the "elbow
down" high brace in both classes I was surprised to hear that it was still
being taught with the arm extended. When I started kayaking some years
ago
I was originally taught to extend my arm in a high brace. It took a while
to change that but after tearing my rotator cuff three times I finally
learned. Some people never have a problem with it. I guess I was one of
the unlucky one's.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
If you're talking about me ("You talking about ME?"), I never said
anything about the ACA and elbow up/arm extended braces. I quoted the
ACA documents for Level 3 and 4 coastal kayak assessments that state
that paddlers should be able to do both high and low braces. This is
for coastal kayak, not WW (rec.boats.paddle.touring, right?). When
you're broached and bracing into a 3 foot breaker, a low brace really
doesn't work as well as a well-tucked high brace. And yes, extend your
arm in that situation and they may be carting you off to the ER.

Now I'm wondering, did the ACA ever "encourage a high braces with the
elbow up (or arm extended)" or are we chasing a chimera?

Steve

Courtney wrote:
It's interesting that I'm seeing people not knowing that the ACA
doesn't
encourage a high braces with the elbow up (or arm extended) anymore.
When I
started teaching whitewater and took the class about 10 years ago they
told
us it then. I haven't checked their web site out lately but I wonder
why
they're not making it known. I do recall that my instructor trainer
still
called the low elbow a high brace but we were also using the backside
of
the
blade as well. It's easy once a person is used to doing it and can be
used
without a problem in big water. I happened to notice (because of this
thread) that I used it three times the other afternoon in class III /
IV
with side kicking waves and holes.

Courtney

wrote in message
ups.com...
I must have missed the memo from ACA,or perhaps their web site is
out
of date, but several places there is mention of using both high and
low
braces, for example in the Level 3 and Level 4 Assessments. Only low
brace appears in the Level 1 skill set, though, so Brian may be
right
WRT beginning paddlers.

The elbow tucked down position is the one I teach, after a long
lecture
about dislocations.

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in :

Davej wrote:
I have seen this discussed in the past with a high degree of
uncertainty and confusion. Have basic hand position guidelines
now
been
settled upon? Thanks.

What has happened is that the ACA and BCU are no longer teaching
or
recommending high bracing.
When did that happen? As of a couple of years ago a high brace
for
support
(both from a stationary position and on the move) were required
for
the
BCU
3 star assessment.





--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

....stuff deleted

As to the question of whether the ACA is teaching extended arm bracing
"anymore," I direct your attention to page 49 of Laurie Gullion's
_Canoeing and Kayaking Instruction Manual_. I know you have a copy of it.
There is a picture of a kayaker doing an elbows-tucked-in "low high
brace." That book was published by the ACA in 1987. That's, um, almost 20
years ago, which suggests that extended arm bracing was never recommended.
Perhaps there is evidence to the contrary, but I can't find it.


At least for kayaking, I'm not certain when the recommendations changed.
When I took a surf zone class a goodly many years ago (certainly more than
10), they taught the low hand position for the high brace. I recall them
mentioning "shoulder injuries," but not exactly what injuries those might
be. As for sea kayaking, when I took it up, anyway, it seemed many the
instructors were ex-WW instructors, though I could be wrong on that.

It is also possible that due to the influence of Hutchenson and other
European's (who really were the focus of sea kayaking instruction), that the
instruction/philosophy of early instructors was strongly influenced by the
BCU (British Canoe Union) and their recommendations about the sport. Whether
those included the low hand position is something requiring research.

Rick