I haven't done a seakayak tour before, though I've paddled quite a bit
for decades. But I'm going to do a modest one with short legs up at
the Straits of Mackinaw, Michigan, next week.

I own a Seda Glider (a woodstrip version of one, anyway) and have been
borrowing a Valley Pintail. What different boats, huh? : )

I'll paddle the 3.5 mi hop from St. Ignace to Mack Is. then the less-
than-a-mile hops over to Round Is and Bois Blanc Is. and around parts
of their coastlines. I'll be carrying a light load, 20 lbs. I'm 6',
175#.

If it's bad weather I won't go but the Straits have sizeable swells.

The Seda would make short work of the distances. The Pintail seems
more at home in the swells. I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace. Also, this is an
Expedition layup model---darn, must be 80# empty. The long Seda is a
fair bit lighter and can hold more of a load and would paddle any load
with less notice.

My main thing is that I'm wondering how the Seda will do in the
Straits swells. It's known for "stability" but with no rocker I
personally can't quite tell how this is---seems like it would be a bit
of a log bashing thru the waves. I've done plenty of fla****er
raceboat (of several kinds) paddling in waves and things don't always
seem what I'd call "stable." I haven't tipped over in years, though,
and can easily keep anything upright. I've mostly paddled the Seda on
a lake and only paddled it in sizeable waves once. I'm not sure I'd
call it wave-friendly. It seems like it required more attention. I'd
really like to get to know it better, though. It's a great boat, a
real character boat this one. I'd rather paddle it---but the Pintail
seems to my hunches to be much more wave-friendly, if half as fast.

I've finally gotten my roll down, thanks to the Pintail---I had a good
"breakthru." I'd been shaky with the roll in the Glider previously but
I'm going to try it again now and I think I'll be fine with it. I've
been fine on the paddlefloat re-entries with the Glider (and Pintail,
too). For the next week I'll practice in both boats.

Wonder which I should take on the tour...

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

BTW - I have a bias against some kayaks, and the Seda models, as
_touring_ kayaks, are in that category.

The Seda would make short work of the distances. The Pintail seems
more at home in the swells.

That sounds right.

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

You don't say whether you're solo or with others. If you're solo and
are not dependent on keeping to anyone else's schedule, that makes the
choice easier.

Also, this is an
Expedition layup model---darn, must be 80# empty.

Probably around 60-65 lb, but I know what you mean.

I'm going to do a modest one with short legs.
[...]
I'll be carrying a light load, 20 lbs.
[...]

If you're solo, and lightly loaded, the Pintail has no real
disadvantages IMHO. It's not fast, but then it's not a race. If the
paddling legs each day are short, then you won't be wearing yourself out
for hours on end. If you were talking about lots of days with long legs
and keeping up with others, the Pintail might (depending on your
skills/strength) be a disadvantage.

If you're solo and you're worried at all about the handling in rough or
big conditions, then the Seda is a disadvantage, even if it's just what
it does to your level of confidence.

I'd say use the Pintail if comfort counts for more than speed. I'd
recommend getting the Seda out on day trips in bigger conditions (with
some load in it to simulate touring) to get a better feel for it before
making a commitment to tripping with it. You might also want to see how
the Seda handles with a significant load in it. That can have a
remarkable effect on handling - more stable but harder to turn. That
will also happen with a Pintail, but the effect on turning will not be
as great.

Mike

Thanks for your thoughts!

On Aug 5, 3:09 pm, Michael Daly wrote:
[ ]
If you're solo, and lightly loaded, the Pintail has no real
disadvantages IMHO.

Yeah, but... I also have a bit of a "safety in speed" view. Spending a
good bit less time on my passage-hops is something that appeals to
me.

It's kinda like how I like my race bicycle for riding the suburban
highways around here as compared to my grocery bike. (Both my wife and
I tend to use our race bikes even for errands around here---the speed
difference between us and the cars isn't as great.)

To me, the faster Glider has an appropriate "getting somewhere" feel
to it. But...


[ ]
If you're solo and you're worried at all about the handling in rough or
big conditions, then the Seda is a disadvantage, even if it's just what
it does to your level of confidence.

There's that!

I'd say use the Pintail if comfort counts for more than speed. I'd
recommend getting the Seda out on day trips in bigger conditions (with
some load in it to simulate touring) to get a better feel for it before
making a commitment to tripping with it. You might also want to see how
the Seda handles with a significant load in it. That can have a
remarkable effect on handling - more stable but harder to turn. That

I'll do this today!

I've always tended to use racing equipment for my touring... But, boy,
I like that "duck on water" feel of the Pintail! (No coincidence
there!) But for character-style and for making short work of
distance...darn that Glider is sweet! Decisions... I'll test more
today...

--JP

"Michael Daly" wrote...

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

I don't know anything about production kayaks. What actual speeds are you
talking about? What are the "no sweat" and hull speeds of the 2 kayaks?

For reference, my Pygmy Coho goes 3 kt at a leisurely "all day" pace (no
wind, flat water), and the hull speed is right at 5.


Also, this is an
Expedition layup model---darn, must be 80# empty.

Probably around 60-65 lb, but I know what you mean.

If you got the time, build one at closer to 42#! :-)

On Aug 6, 11:35 pm, "John Weiss" wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote...

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

I don't know anything about production kayaks. What actual speeds are you
talking about? What are the "no sweat" and hull speeds of the 2 kayaks?

For reference, my Pygmy Coho goes 3 kt at a leisurely "all day" pace (no
wind, flat water), and the hull speed is right at 5.

I haven't done the calculation. One seems to take all day to get
somewhere, with the other you're there in short order. Impressions
count!

I also note that yesterday I went to the Seda homepage and noticed
that they're selling the boat with a slogan like "with speed comes
safety!" I doubt that the Pintail is sold like that at all. That kinda
relates to my hunch that I posted earlier. I kinda like being able to
do a modest hour+ hop before the weather changes.

Really, these boats represent two TOTALLY DIFFERENT approaches to
touring.

I think I'll go for the Pintail for this trip. I'll take my time and
enjoy how nicely the Pintail behaves with all the biggish swells I'm
likely to get.

Also, this is an
Expedition layup model---darn, must be 80# empty.

Probably around 60-65 lb, but I know what you mean.

If you got the time, build one at closer to 42#! :-)

No time, man!

I let other guys do the work then buy their cast-offs when they get
the itch to build something new! : ) The guy who used to have both
of these boats built the Seda-copy---he said it was only about 30 lbs
before he added the hatches, lines, fixtures---now it weighs lots
more. But even at 19 feet it's still not as heavy as the 17' Pintail
with all its fixtures/lines/pump. How did they get so much weight into
such a slim, low-volume "little" boat? (Compared to the Glider, the
Pintail with its fine ends seems SMALL.) I think my pal damaged the
Pintail bottom at one point, patched it, then ended up painting most
of the bottom with some weird white epoxy paint---maybe that also
added a buncha weight. But I'm a wimp---I really prefer my 25# kevlar
C1 for daily lake use. So easy to handle off the water! (When I go
bike touring I mail most everything home after the first couple days.
I'm getting better though---to avoid starting out with too much in
first place. Yet when I go by car for a weekend outing, dang, that rig
FILLS UP.)

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

I also note that yesterday I went to the Seda homepage and noticed
that they're selling the boat with a slogan like "with speed comes
safety!" I doubt that the Pintail is sold like that at all.

Naah, the Pintail would be something like "With handling comes safety."
You wouldn't use downhill skis on a slalom course, no matter how
"fast" they are.

BTW - I know a lot of kayakers who paddle a Pintail at the same speed
as many can paddle a Seda under touring conditions. I also know someone
who bought a Seda (forget which model) for "speed" and spent an
incredible amount of time getting back into the kayak after tipping
over. YMMV.

Mike

On Aug 6, 11:35 pm, "John Weiss" wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote...

I like the wave friendliness of the
Pintail but dislike it's stodginess for pace.

I don't know anything about production kayaks. What actual speeds are you
talking about? What are the "no sweat" and hull speeds of the 2 kayaks?

PS: Again, this is perhaps really a discussion about the two main
different ways of seakayaking. Curveboat or straightboat. Or, what are
the official names? Greenland style versus, uh, Euro? ...Glider vs.
Pintail... Can't get more different!

My initial readings of the differences a

*Glider: fast, awkward
"Pintail: slow, comfy

Ugh, what a dilemma!

I suppose there are (quite a few?) boats that are happy in the middle
or perhaps solve both needs. ?

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

I suppose there are (quite a few?) boats that are happy in the middle
or perhaps solve both needs. ?

None that I know of solve both needs. However, many are somewhere in
the middle.

Mike

"Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote...

PS: Again, this is perhaps really a discussion about the two main
different ways of seakayaking. Curveboat or straightboat. Or, what are
the official names? Greenland style versus, uh, Euro? ...Glider vs.
Pintail... Can't get more different!

My initial readings of the differences a

*Glider: fast, awkward
"Pintail: slow, comfy

Ugh, what a dilemma!

I suppose there are (quite a few?) boats that are happy in the middle
or perhaps solve both needs. ?

Again, without knowing the actual speeds attainable in each kayak, it's
impossible to suggest an "in the middle" boat. How "fast" is the glider?
How "slow" is the Pintail? Is it only a perception, or is the speed
difference real?

Also, handling is another issue. How do each of them handle in a cross- or
following sea? Do they need rudders to maintain control? If so, how much
does the rudder slow them down?

I'm a fan of KISS. I built my Coho without a rudder, and am very pleased
with its handling without one. Every time I see one of the fancy 'glass
kayaks, I wonder how they would handle without their [various] retractable
rudders & skegs. I also wonder how I would manhandle a 65#+ kayak to the
top of the car without help...

I'm going with the Pintail on this outing. (A few days kayak-tent-
touring in the Straits of Mackinaw---hooking up with folks who are
doing much of the cooking...)

My comfort curve in this boat is doubling every day. What fun!

Yeah, it's a pain to cartop but I'll deal---I'm not complaining about
a sweet boat like this that we got for $300! Sure, it's heavy but
whatever. Our local pals call it the "Lead Sled" but it's fun on the
water. I hope to find grass for dragging it to the water.

I think this boat is gonna love any kind of swells that come our way.

Today I was rolling both ways lots of times and practicing no-set-up
rolls and random tip-over rolls to either side and coming up on either
side---what fun! I couldn't do this last year---but then I'd been
practicing in my Glider! (And not practicing all that much. I'm
finally putting in some time---and finally have the mental picture
down.)

I did bail out once but then got back in easily with my paddlefloat.
Then I rolled a few times with water-heavy cockpit, no prob.

I was also doing highbraces to the point of overturning the boat and
righting again readily. It's fun putting my torso/head in the water
and coming up again. I like the semi-immersion aspect of these low
volume boats. (After spending most of my summer outdoor time on road
bikes, getting wet is a joy.)

Seems like a nice boat for a couple day semi-supported jaunt---in the
moderate conditions that I'll let myself go out in.

Onward! --JP
outyourbackdoor.com