Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 24, 6:28*am, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,





KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:

On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]

When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted,
but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows.

Garbage TV is the same everywhere.

Yep, but it always comes from the same place. ;)


I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American
dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in

No, we don't have much of the industrial pollution. Rules for the
oil industry are strict; and the plants tend to have localised
pollution, and are put in some desolate place between steep
mountains. The cruise ships don't go to those fjords.

They even put back some water in the waterfalls for the tourists
to watch. Normally any waterfall of any size would have been put
in pipes to make hydropower.

Wherever you go in Norway, you don't see piles of garbage, not even a
piece of paper on the ground. I wonder if our politicians could ever
go there and bring back some ideas.


the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats
do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers
and other civilized people.

Nowadays, we MAKE a lot of those boats. And the Swedes make a lot
of the engines. Also sold in America.

The entrepreneurs among us saw Miami Vice, and thought "I can make
those cheaper and better".

-- mrr- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, it's like Volvo. They also got into the SUV craze... Not as
stupid as our Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles but still unnecessary. Good
old fashioned station wagons are still the best.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 23, 4:39*pm, -hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. *With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?

First of all, there are "lions" out there and "wannabes." Meaning
there are many big yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds owned by the ones that
want to imitate the others. The former you see either cruising slowly
on their yachts or racing by on their fast boats. The latter are the
ones that bring their extended family to the islands out there and
leave all the garbage behind.

In other words, motorboating has become democratic and even the dog
participates in the affair. Actually, there are ads on TV that promote
motorboating as a fun thing for the whole family --and the dog.

It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars. "Money to burn"=Big Yacht &
SUV. "Survivor"=old car and boat.


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see it floating all over the
place.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get some serious second hand
smoke.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't even make it to the water
(they look good parked on the driveway). And the kayaks stay away from
those motorboat highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

But your common sense tells you they are a real threat. More than
terrorists, say. ;)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 23, 5:57 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have
one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though
because they are water and leakproof.

Batteries in boats are generally protected against sea water or of a type
that is not easily damaged, like the AGM battery you use. As it happens I
use them too. As for getting depleted, that's what chargers are for. By
the way, your battery is much more likely to become depeleted than mine.
Perhaps it Kayakers that are leaving them.

You do know that, by putting a trolling motor on your kayak, you're
classified as a power boat, right?

Oh, give me a break. At worst I'd be a hybrid. Small, slow, noiseless
and backed up by paddles.

And still I've got the kayak that goes on banana power alone (meaning
I eat the bananas that power the boat). ;)


Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think
MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO
HAVE A DEGREE OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS.

Yet, in the same post, you identified yourself as a power boater.

But not a threat to anything. Certainly not a couch potato looking for
adventure.


My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;)

It's almost exactly the same threat as mine. An anchor that sets and stays
in place, does very little damage to anything and there's already a law
requiring people to anchor in adjacent sand areas rather than on coral.
Chain and line, on the other hand, can do quite a bit of damage, whether
attached to a kayak or different kind of power boat.

I'd look before I anchor to a reef, don't you?


How much you need for a motorboat?

Which power boat? I have three and, as I've already mentioned, a kayak.
Anchors for each boat is designed for the boat I use it with. My smallest
power boat uses an anchor just like the one I use for the kayak.

OK, why don't you get rid of the big ones?

But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

What you can smell is not harming the reefs. As for what you doubt, I
suggest you learn a bit more before getting it wrong again. If you're
talking about human waste by those on boats, I'm afraid you'll have to
include kayakers in your list. It's legal for either of us to use the
ocean as a bathroom. It is not legal for me to discharge my head directly
overboard or to discharge my holding tank within coastal waters. The sewage
outfalls in Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties, on the other hand, pump
millions of gallons of partially treated sewage and chemicals onto the reefs
every day.

Can the government ever be that bad? They claim they treat everything
at Virginia Key...


The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%) . . .

You know that includes your kayak, right?

I've been boating in south Florida for 54 years. I've never had an
accident. Imagine that.

Lee

Do you do kayaking by any chance, or you just represent the
motorboating association?

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 24, 7:07*am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
wrote:

On Aug 24, 7:07=A0am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zon=
es
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lane=
s
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;)
Damn, what an ass, you must be French

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

KingOfTheApes wrote:
" wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.
I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

You lose. I was trying to insult you, but you're too dense to recognize it.

Oh, yeah, PLONK

Steve

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 24, 4:42*pm, (Rod) wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana





wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:07=A0am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zon=
es
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lane=
s
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;)

Damn, what an ass, you must be French- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How clever. If I was French, I'd signing something like
LeComandanteBanana. ;)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 24, 6:11*pm, Steve Cramer wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
" wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.
I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

You lose. I was trying to insult you, but you're too dense to recognize it.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=Big Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=old car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say. ;)

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article ,
-hh wrote:
Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.

Basic, cheap dacron 140% Genua for 14.65 meter mast : $3500
150% dacron with some fibres for stiffening : $4500
Mylar 150% deck-swiper with woven fibres : $6000
...
Kevlar/Carbon racing genua, 150% : $14000

I guess you could just squeeze in ABC/wetsuit/tank/bcd/reg+bottom timer for $3500.

$14k should buy you a decent computer, doubles, drysuit&undergarments and a camera too.

-- mrr