KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.


The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%).

And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without
the context of the relevant contributing base population also being
provided.

Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004.

With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising
that the observed total also increased?

A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities
involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats...

Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a
group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered
if the relevant contributing base population context was included ...
which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made
that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine
causality.


-hh

In article ,
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?

The "salarimen" have taken to motorboating, with cabin cruisers.
They have the cash, but less time to learn to operate the craft.

Most marinas are built for boats up to 39'/12m length, 11'6"/3.5m
wide. The new cigar boats and cabin cruisers are too big for them,
so they are often forced to anchoring.


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

There is remarkably little pollution from watercraft of any type
around here.

Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.

There are some "peak" risk groups. The insurance for a cigar boat
without a proper skipper exam and practice is now about $100 per
horsepower per year. With proper traning documented you can almost
cut a digit from those prices. Some insurance agencies refuse to
insure 100 hp, 12 tons or 13 m/42' without skipper certifications.

The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%).

And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without
the context of the relevant contributing base population also being
provided.

Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004.

With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising
that the observed total also increased?

A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities
involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats...

Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a
group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered
if the relevant contributing base population context was included ...
which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made
that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine
causality.

Indeed.

Authorities here are reviewing ideas of zone separation for different
craft. 5kn speed limits proposed for motorboats outside zones, and
licensing for larger crafts with a point system for revoking the
licence.

-- mrr

On Aug 23, 4:39*pm, -hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. *With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?

First of all, there are "lions" out there and "wannabes." Meaning
there are many big yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds owned by the ones that
want to imitate the others. The former you see either cruising slowly
on their yachts or racing by on their fast boats. The latter are the
ones that bring their extended family to the islands out there and
leave all the garbage behind.

In other words, motorboating has become democratic and even the dog
participates in the affair. Actually, there are ads on TV that promote
motorboating as a fun thing for the whole family --and the dog.

It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars. "Money to burn"=Big Yacht &
SUV. "Survivor"=old car and boat.


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see it floating all over the
place.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get some serious second hand
smoke.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't even make it to the water
(they look good parked on the driveway). And the kayaks stay away from
those motorboat highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

But your common sense tells you they are a real threat. More than
terrorists, say.

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=Big Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=old car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say.

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

On Aug 25, 4:52*pm, -hh wrote:

But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say.

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. *Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.

-hh- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Life was very unfair when the Vikings went around pillaging and
killing left and right. But they are today very civilized people, even
showing respect for nature as well as for the little guy on the bike
or kayak.

So I hope other "less-than-civilized" people can evolve too.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:52:22 -0700 (PDT), -hh
wrote:

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=3DBig Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=3Dold car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. =A0Yes, very 'startling'. =A0
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say.

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

Why would anyone care unless they were planning to sue or something?
I've been kayaking all over the east coast, from Maine to the
Everglades, and I find personal water craft far more irritating,
hazardous, and likely to be in unskilled hands than any kind of
smudgepot (power boat).

Galen Hekhuis wrote

Why would anyone care unless they were planning to sue or something?
I've been kayaking all over the east coast, from Maine to the
Everglades, and I find personal water craft far more irritating,
hazardous, and likely to be in unskilled hands than any kind of
smudgepot (power boat).

You hit that one right on the nose except, of course, for the smudgepot
part.

Lee

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around. Presto, no
more gas slick.

Lee

"Lee Bell" wrote:
Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? *What's a gas doc?

Dock. It doesn't matter too much anyway, because now the discussion
is shifting.

It started as claims of pollution from normal running conditions that
was observed along protected waters (eg, ICW), but this is talking
about a semi-"point" source of pollution, namely a spill occurring at
refueling stations.


Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around.
*Presto, no more gas slick.

Of course, another option when refueling, is to not spill so much fuel
(such that the Sheen Rule is invoked, etc).

And from a similar observation of human nature, a chronic spiller may
very well get inconvenienced by the owner of the refueling station to
report every spill no matter how small (ie, well below reporting
threshold). We can all figure out the real reasons why.


-hh