Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO
THE MOTORBOATS?

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

It wasn't a surprise for me though. The cigarette boats routinely roar
close to the beach to signal who the seas belong to. Hey, it belongs
to the big fish!

NOTE: The attendants of this West Marine store I went to to get a flag
for the kayak told me of the motorboats, "Hey be careful. They don't
care."

WELCOME TO BE JUNGLE
(beware of the big fish)
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION?
(the sardine revolution)
http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

ComandanteBanana wrote

Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your
position on the issues you did address.

The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF
WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS?

Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh you
by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and
yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned
into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back,
that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's call
survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory.
They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do.

Other than that, here's another anwer. You don't have to give right of way.
Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common
sense, have the right of way over powered ones.

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated, report
them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for
automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and
quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are
maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.

Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like
crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in
front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience
than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just
like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of
traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the
channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that.

But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way on
the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them?

While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's
not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. For all you
know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course
from one point to the next. Your assumption that he chose to bother you is
a bit off the mark.

I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more
room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going
behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go
through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his
path, you also had the option to give yourself more room.

Mostly, I think you think you should have equal rights and you're not happy
that you weren't able to impose your will on those bigger than you are. I
have the same problems with cops. You'll get over it. I did.

Lee

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 14, 1:09*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
ComandanteBanana wrote

Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your
position on the issues you did address.

Perhaps gaining ground for the little boats out there is ambitious
enough not to take upon my shoulders the defense of the whole sardine
population.


The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF
WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS?

Here is is in a nutshell. *It's called "The Rule of Tonage." *I outweigh you
by . . . well, by a lot of times. *In an encounter between my boat and
yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. *If you aren't, you'll be turned
into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back,
that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. *It's call
survival. *Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory.
They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do.

Good to know. Just by choosing to be a kayaker you'll be a strong
contender for the Darwin's awards.

But since I consider myself a SITTING DUCK, I'm actually doing little
to deserve that award. The motorboat driver is better qualified. He's
playing the SHARK here.


Other than that, here's another anwer. *You don't have to give right of way.
Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common
sense, have the right of way over powered ones.

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. *If they intoxicated, report
them. *There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for
automobile driers. *There are speed limits posted all over the place and
quite a few that apply even when not posted. *On top of it all, there are
maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.

If the drivers of those motorboats are captains, then I'm the captain
of my kayak.

Hey, I better leave that honor for the sailboat captains.


Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like
crossing any other highway. *You would be ill advised to pull out right in
front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience
than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just
like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of
traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. *You're the one entering the
channel. *You're the one responsible for doing it safely. *Imagine that.

Ha, ha, ha. The sitting duck is responsible for sitting there...

http://www.whimsical-art.com/ProdIma...ttingDuck1.jpg

Now you explain to me how a 4mph kayak dodges a 40mph motorboats. A
lot of praying, right? ;)


But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

You don't know that at all. *There are rules for who has the right of way on
the ocean as well. *Have you bothered to research them?

Why research them if they are not practiced? The only de facto law is
law of the jungle, as I said before. And if it is in the books so the
books must be changed because the lawyers (who work for the motorboat
industry) are NOT considering kayaks when writing them.


While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's
not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. *For all you
know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course
from one point to the next. *Your assumption that he chose to bother you is
a bit off the mark.

It was plain intimidation at worst, or simply ignoring the kayak the
way you would ignore, say, an ant. Do you change your course over an
ant?


I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more
room. *I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going
behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go
through mine might be. *On the other hand, if you were paddling into his
path, you also had the option to give yourself more room.

Which means, I should stop paddling and become a sitting duck, not a
slow duck.

You know my strategy? Just ignore him, and go on living like this is
my last day. ;)


Mostly, I think you think you should have equal rights and *you're not happy
that you weren't able to impose your will on those bigger than you are. *I
have the same problems with cops. *You'll get over it. *I did.

Lee

Hey, don't generalize. Some cops are good just as some boaters are
good, and even deserve to be called captains.

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

It is a jungle. From the law of gross tonnage that Lee mentions to
the fact that there are oodles of natural things out there that can
kill you. Powerboats aren't the only thing. (As a matter of fact,
I've had a powerboat with a bunch of teenagers almost sink their own
boat trying to play "sink the kayak" when they caught me on a lake in
Virginia. They gave up in frustration, I barely even got wet. Unless
it runs you over or something, a powerboat is no match for a kayak. It
can seem a little scary, however.) It is much safer to sit inside and
watch TV.

might makes right
 

On Aug 14, 2:53*pm, Galen Hekhuis wrote:
It is a jungle. *From the law of gross tonnage that Lee mentions to
the fact that there are oodles of natural things out there that can
kill you. *Powerboats aren't the only thing. * (As a matter of fact,
I've had a powerboat with a bunch of teenagers almost sink their own
boat trying to play "sink the kayak" when they caught me on a lake in
Virginia. *They gave up in frustration, I barely even got wet. *Unless
it runs you over or something, a powerboat is no match for a kayak. It
can seem a little scary, however.) *It is much safer to sit inside and
watch TV.

You can always watch kayaking videos, right? ;)

But this kid makes the wrong assumption first (it's NOT a jungle) and
then realized the hard truth...

'Looks like I’m wrong. According to this coast guard captain, one
should always assume that “might makes right” on the water. If you
see a vehicle larger than you....avoid it!'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDue...eature=related

Yeah man, you are in worse situation that a bike. Here you are fair
game for every single predator out there. And the least of your
worries are sharks and alligators.

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 14, 1:09*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. *If they intoxicated, report
them. *There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for
automobile driers. *There are speed limits posted all over the place and
quite a few that apply even when not posted. *On top of it all, there are
maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.

I'll like you to elaborate more on this. Is enforcement as harsh and
frequent as on the roads? Are there open container laws? Are there
speed limits? And are there wake requirements?

Not that I care about the last issue. ;)

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh
you
by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and
yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned
into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the
back,
that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's
call
survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory.
They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do.

Good to know. Just by choosing to be a kayaker you'll be a strong
contender for the Darwin's awards.

Not at all. Your question was why you have to give way. The answer is
because you don't stand a chance if you don't. Just like motorcyclists, the
one most likely to die in an accident is the one that had better make sure
one doesn't happen.

But since I consider myself a SITTING DUCK, I'm actually doing little
to deserve that award. The motorboat driver is better qualified. He's
playing the SHARK here.

Only if you assume that he's trying to get you. If he was, you'd be the
first to know. I suppose if a rock were falling, you'd step under it and
blame the rock for hitting you.

If the drivers of those motorboats are captains, then I'm the captain
of my kayak.

OK with me.

Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like
crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in
front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience
than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated,
just
like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of
traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the
channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that.

Ha, ha, ha. The sitting duck is responsible for sitting there...

Were you sitting there or crossing the channel? Make up your mind.

Now you explain to me how a 4mph kayak dodges a 40mph motorboats. A
lot of praying, right? ;)

You don't. You give way. It appears you had the answer to your question
all along. You just don't like it.

You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way
on
the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them?

Why research them if they are not practiced?

So you know what they are and can act accordingly?
So you can report those that fail to abide by them?

Did you learn the rules of driving even though they are routinely violated?

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.

If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on the
food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their
choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change
your choice.

And if it is in the books so the books must be changed because the lawyers
(who work
for the motorboat industry) are NOT considering kayaks when writing them.

You don't know what the laws are, but you know what those that wrote them
were thinking?

The lawyers that wrote the laws were not, in fact, working for the motorboat
industry. If they were, there would be no give way rules for sailboats and
their damned sure would be no manatee zones where there are not, normally,
any manatees.

It was plain intimidation at worst, or simply ignoring the kayak the
way you would ignore, say, an ant. Do you change your course over an
ant?

Sometimes.

I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit
more
room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going
behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to
go
through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his
path, you also had the option to give yourself more room.

Which means, I should stop paddling and become a sitting duck, not a
slow duck.

Which means that paddling into the path of an oncoming speeding boat is kind
of stupid. Refer back to the Darwin discussion.

You know my strategy? Just ignore him, and go on living like this is
my last day. ;)

Works for me, but it makes me wonder why you're complaining here.

Lee


Mostly, I think you think you should have equal rights and you're not
happy
that you weren't able to impose your will on those bigger than you are. I
have the same problems with cops. You'll get over it. I did.

Lee

Hey, don't generalize. Some cops are good just as some boaters are
good, and even deserve to be called captains.

might makes right
 

'Looks like I’m wrong. According to this coast guard captain, one
should always assume that “might makes right” on the water. If you
see a vehicle larger than you....avoid it!'

Anything else may be right, but there's a reason for the words "dead right."

Lee

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated,
report
them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for
automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and
quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are
maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.

I'll like you to elaborate more on this. Is enforcement as harsh and
frequent as on the roads?

More so in the intracoastal. Every city in S. Florida, plus the Coast
Guard, Marine Patol the Fish and Game Commission has boats on the
intracoastal enforcing the laws.

Are there open container laws?

Probably not, if for no other reason, because a lot of the boats, mine, for
example, have bars aboard. Having opened containers does not translate into
being impaired. There are laws against operating a boat under the
influence. They're quite similar to the ones for drivers if you're a
civilian. They're must more stringent if you're a licensed captain.

Are there speed limits?

Yes. How does it happen you have not observed the signs? They're all over
the intracoastal.

And are there wake requirements?

Yes. They're posted in various places along the intracoastal too.

Not that I care about the last issue. ;)

You might. While my wake probably would not sink you, it would probably
make you uncomfortable.

Lee

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:
the rules of the road inland or at sea say the un powered less
maneuverable vessel has the right of way and the real watch out is on
the overtaking vessel.

"The Nav Rules are written with the understanding that not all boats
can maneuver with the same ease. Therefore, Rule 18 states that
certain vessels must keep out of the way of other vessels due to their
ability to maneuver.

A power driven vessel underway must keep out of the way of the
following:

o A sailing vessel, under sail only, and vessels propelled
by oars or paddles. (Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it
is considered a power driven vessel).
o A vessel engaged in fishing, whose fishing equipment
restricts its maneuverability. This does not include a sport fisher or
party boat and generally means a commercial fishing vessel.
o A vessel with restricted maneuverability such as a dredge
or tow boat, a boat engaged in work that restricts it to a certain
area, or a vessel transferring supplies to another vessel.
o A vessel not under command – broken down.

Each of these vessels must keep out of the way of the next vessel in
the hierarchy. For example, a sailboat must keep out of the way of a
vessel engaged in fishing, which in turn must keep out of the way of a
vessel with restricted maneuverability. And everyone must keep out of
the way of a vessel not under command.
"

that being said unofficially tonnage rules.
or you can decide to get mad and do something about the drunken
assholes. this can range from getting a citizen group together or
direct action.

a granade or a can of white gas with a blasting cap floated in front
of a cig boat. sure makes the scum of the water into so much scrap. A
nice chain just under the water does a good job as well.
I do love the sound of bubbas beer can breaking his tooth.

mainly my advice is to get out of the cancer coast and move to a place
with humans.

here is a link to the inland rules of the road.http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
read it carefully and don't try to go head to head with a jet ski.
however they have side numbers and you can report them and bring
charges.

PS. in case you didn't notice Lee is a Plexiotomy recipient.

In South Florida is a bad idea to be a manatee. So much so that it may
become a verb...

Suzy wrote:
...so you won’t get manateed, I mean run over.

Gus wrote:
LOL at that.

Oh, I missed that. Maybe it will become and entry in the next
Webster’s Dictionary…

Manatee (v): to live in South Florida and get run over by motorboats
while kayaking, just like manatees.

Shark (v): to live in South Florida and own a big superfast motorboat
while intimidating others.

***

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:



the rules of the road inland or at sea say the un powered less
maneuverable vessel has the right of way and the real watch out is on
the overtaking vessel.

"The Nav Rules are written with the understanding that not all boats
can maneuver with the same ease. Therefore, Rule 18 states that
certain vessels must keep out of the way of other vessels due to their
ability to maneuver.

A power driven vessel underway must keep out of the way of the
following:

o A sailing vessel, under sail only, and vessels propelled
by oars or paddles. (Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it
is considered a power driven vessel).
o A vessel engaged in fishing, whose fishing equipment
restricts its maneuverability. This does not include a sport fisher or
party boat and generally means a commercial fishing vessel.
o A vessel with restricted maneuverability such as a dredge
or tow boat, a boat engaged in work that restricts it to a certain
area, or a vessel transferring supplies to another vessel.
o A vessel not under command – broken down.

Each of these vessels must keep out of the way of the next vessel in
the hierarchy. For example, a sailboat must keep out of the way of a
vessel engaged in fishing, which in turn must keep out of the way of a
vessel with restricted maneuverability. And everyone must keep out of
the way of a vessel not under command.
"

that being said unofficially tonnage rules.
or you can decide to get mad and do something about the drunken
assholes. this can range from getting a citizen group together or
direct action.

a granade or a can of white gas with a blasting cap floated in front
of a cig boat. sure makes the scum of the water into so much scrap. A
nice chain just under the water does a good job as well.
I do love the sound of bubbas beer can breaking his tooth.

mainly my advice is to get out of the cancer coast and move to a place
with humans.

here is a link to the inland rules of the road.http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
read it carefully and don't try to go head to head with a jet ski.
however they have side numbers and you can report them and bring
charges.

PS. in case you didn't notice Lee is a Plexiotomy recipient.

In South Florida is a bad idea to be a manatee. So much so that it may
become a verb...

Suzy wrote:
...so you won’t get manateed, I mean run over.
Gus wrote:
LOL at that.

Oh, I missed that. Maybe it will become and entry in the next
Webster’s Dictionary…

Manatee (v): to live in South Florida and get run over by motorboats
while kayaking, just like manatees.

Shark (v): to live in South Florida and own a big superfast motorboat
while intimidating others.

***

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

Take your pick go north or south east or west from the cancer coast
and you soon get a higher proportion of humans to Bubbas.

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 14, 8:39*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.

If you believe that, then quit your complaining. *You chose to be low on the
food chain. *They chose not to be. *They benefit and suffer for their
choices. *You benefit and suffer for yours. *If you don't like it, change
your choice.

Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't
like it, grow up!"

Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid,
suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun...

Imagine a world where nations invade nations, your sister is raped and
your kids get bullied at school.

Well, much of it is already happening, and it comes right from the
top...

(just from today's news)

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=222358

Not even bikes are as insignificant as kayaks to be ignored by the
law. And not that it makes a big difference, but, oh well, that's
another subject. ;)

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message
...
On Aug 14, 8:39 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.

If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on
the
food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their
choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change
your choice.

Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't
like it, grow up!"

Not defending it. Just recognizing it.

Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid,
suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun...

Your choice. Take the good with the bad.

For what it's worth, I have a Kayak too and, for that matter, rode my
bicycle about 10 miles today.

Lee

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 15, 6:36*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message

...
On Aug 14, 8:39 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.
If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on
the
food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their
choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change
your choice.
Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't
like it, grow up!"

Not defending it. *Just recognizing it.

Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid,
suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun...

Your choice. *Take the good with the bad.

For what it's worth, I have a Kayak too and, for that matter, rode my
bicycle about 10 miles today.

Lee

TO RECOGNIZE WE HAVE A PROBLEM IS HALF THE PROBLEM.

DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT IS THE OTHER HALF.

Hey, we all trying to survive in the jungle, but DOES IT HAVE TO BE
THAT WAY?

Are the predators going to laugh their way into extinction?

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

In article ,
Lee Bell wrote:
ComandanteBanana wrote

Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your
position on the issues you did address.

The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF
WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS?

Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh you
by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and
yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned
into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back,
that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's call
survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory.
They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do.

Other than that, here's another anwer. You don't have to give right of way.
Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common
sense, have the right of way over powered ones.

With modifications.

If you are in a defined VTC area the vessels in the "motorway" have
right of way to anything crossing. These are clearly marked on any
chart. Dates from the Copenhagen protocol of 1859, with later extensions.
Flag states have authority over the VTC, even in international waters.
(Was never ratified by the confederate states, though).

The VTC operator is king. Listen to VHF on the VTC channels to get
updates.

Ferries and other officially scheduled traffic comes next.

Then there are three conflicting sets of rules.

1) The "seamanship" rules.

* Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc.
* Planes under landing and takeoff have next right of way.
* Overtaking boat yields for the overtaken.
* Propelled (including rowboats) yield for sailboats and planes.
* Planes yield for sail (until Jun 1st 2006 this was the other way around)
* Engine yield for non-engine
* Sailboats with the wind from port yield for other sailboats with the
wind from Starboard.
* Sailboats yield for other sailboats with a higher angle into the wind.

2) The "useful" rules.

* Boats carrying payload have first rights.
* More payload = more right of way
* You shall not disturb a vessel that cannot manouver as well as you can.

3) Biggest carries the day.

* I am bigger than you are.

Interesting point is that you must yield for planes, even if they
are overtaking. With sea planes it can be hard to distinguish the
transition from plane to vessel some times.

As of June 1st 2006, military or SAR vessels with blinking blue
lights have first priority over all.

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

But, if convicted of wrongdoing they can have the book thrown at them.
DUI, reckless driving, endangering ship traffic, violations of a score
of SOLAS regulations etc. We have a couple of cases each year where
skippers end up with a year or more of hard time.

They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated, report
them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for
automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and
quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are
maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.

Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like
crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in
front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience
than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just
like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of
traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the
channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that.

Big difference between VTC and non-VTC areas. VTC is more like a
runway for planes. You really _should_ listen to the traffic controller,
even in a canoe. Especially in a canoe.

We have done many dives in VTC areas; they are usually very cooperative,
and we have to follow a given timeslot, and report in as all other VTC
parties do.

But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way on
the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them?

While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's
not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. For all you
know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course
from one point to the next. Your assumption that he chose to bother you is
a bit off the mark.

I can confirm than going off autopilot is a definate hassle. If he
was following a marked sea lane he would probably think of you as a
nuisance; and have the law on his side.

I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more
room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going
behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go
through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his
path, you also had the option to give yourself more room.

Also, signal your intensions by making course adjustments if you have to,
and do it early. BTW, the really large vessels run anti-collision systems,
and have to log collision alarms. If they behave like a**h*les you can
buzz them a little by triggering those alarms. You can do so at a safe
distance, you just need to set a colliding course, and stay there for
a minute or two. The radar and anti-collision systems will pick you up.

-- mrr

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:
On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:




Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]

This territory is sharply defined as the coastal waters from
Mandal (just west of Kristiansand) to just south of Smogen. These
are a sheltered morass of crisscrossing small fjords, and except
for finding the shallows and rocks (with the boaters are very good at),
there is no real challenge in navigating.

West and north of this area there is a whole different culture.
Same for Denmark. There is far between ports, you need to handle
the weather. The larger fjords make excellent wind and wave
tunnels; you can have a storm at the center, and total calm on
land. You have to handle stretches where navigation can be an
issue; e.g. finding the little ports in between all the rocks.

I put the good seamanship in most of Sweden up to the fact that it
is the most well organised place on the planet.

Take your pick go north or south east or west from the cancer coast
and you soon get a higher proportion of humans to Bubbas.

-- mrr

[1] But the story of the motor torpedo boat that ran aground
and killed a cow is true. It actually happened twice, in
1954 and again in the 1970s. The first cow was almost cut in
half, the second one died of a heart attack.
The Navy has "improved the charts" a lot by finding shallows
and rocks noone has know about. They are very good at finding
them at 40 knots as well.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 19, 3:25*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:

1) The *"seamanship" rules.

* ** Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc.

I do have a dive flag that use when snorkeling, but just got a
"protest" red flag, which I learned later was for sailboat races...

Anyway I intend to fly it for two purposes: 1. to be seen, and 2. to
protest against the Law of the Jungle, currently in practice
everywhere in the seas.

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

I'm afraid the laws are made to fit the big ones, of course...

HOW THE LAW WORKS... FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LION
One day the King of the Jungle, tired of being called AUTHORITARIAN,
gathered the most cunning animals in the kingdom, chief among them the
Foxes, and told them: "It's mighty unjust that I am not recognized for
what I am. You know full well that the best of my SCRAPS, after you,
go to the Little Animals... Well, I want you to write LAWS, so from
now on it'll be them, and not me, who would rule over this God chosen
kingdom..."

After a few months of hard deliberations (and a few "private parties"
and "business trips") the Foxes (now turned politicians) returned with
a long, long book of laws written in a language so hard to understand
to the Little Animals that they thought it was old Greek. After
translation, it started like this: "The animals with a mane will be
treated like kings; the animals with paws and teeth will be above the
Laws; and the animals who will represent the interests of the Little
Animals, us, will be granted a raise in benefits and status... Of
course, ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION will be considered ILLEGAL, and
will result in the Lion eating the Little Animal..." (Moral: The trick
is in the law.)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.

I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:





On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]


When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted,
but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows.

I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American
dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in
the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats
do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers
and other civilized people.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article
,
KingOfTheApes wrote:

On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.

I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

At least they don't whine at extended, exhaustive length, looking for
someone else to blame.

fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
 

On Aug 21, 2:10*pm, Steve Hix
wrote:
In article
,

*KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.

I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

At least they don't whine at extended, exhaustive length, looking for
someone else to blame.

They do blame somebody else: Hussein, WMDs, terrorists...

But I'm talking about the safety of those very activities (green,
healthy) that should be promoted, not be left to the Law of the
Jungle.

Hey, fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs. ;)

how best to survive out there
 

(This is a contribution by the very same person who sold me the last
kayak. Reporting from the watery jungle)

Flex 029 wrote:
hi folks, first time here .. met Sr. Commandate Banana at my shop ..

one way of dealing with this problem is to NOT paddle in these areas
on weekends.
when i go on any given week-DAY, there’s usually nobody around -
EXCEPT for all that damn trash~


Howdy Flex, good to see you here so we can discuss how best to survive
out there. I totally agree with you, and in fact I stay away from the
waterways on weekends. The weekends belong to the predators, so to
speak.

I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

As you know, the beautiful kayak I’ve got from you is as bright as
sunrise (that’s the color), as well as the lights and flag I’m getting
from you. So if the superfast, superbig boats don’t see me is because
their drivers (I deny them “captain” status) are superdrunk and
superhigh.

Hey, we’ve developed the same strategy for survival! Actually it was
developed by the early mammals at the time the dinosaurs ruled the
earth.

That’s kind of metaphorical, isn’t it?

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

wpns4l wrote:
"this thread is crazy lol. stories of lions and the jungle.

do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

Hey, you seem to be ready for “the jungle” in that picture. Either you
have big guns… or have a banana to go in there (I have to tell the
metaphorical meaning of it).

Anyway, I do carry a cell phone, and I assume they don’t see me. But
I’m not sure that’s good or bad because then I get all stressed out
over the damn boats, and it defeats the purpose of the kayak, which is
to relax. In other words, I ignore them.

So, I go back to one of the favorite slogans of the revolution,

“Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”

how best to survive out there
 

I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery
floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping
their mattresses in the water either.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about
boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are
extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care
about boats in it.

Lee

fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
 

Hey, fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs. ;)

BFD. I kids bicycle probably sounds like them to you too.

how best to survive out there
 

In rec.boats.paddle Lee Bell wrote:
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery
floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping
their mattresses in the water either.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about
boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are
extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care
about boats in it.

We have a canal here called the I&M canal. Around 1996 a dam rupture caused
the canal to drain exposing all sorts of stuff. We were on the bike trail
the following weekend and were looking at all the recliners, washing machines
and stuff in the canal. The canal is only open to canoes and kayaks and I
don't think many canoeists or kayakers were taking washing machines or
recliners in their boats... course, I could be wrong...

Most of the larger garbage was concentrated near bridges...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 22, 12:37 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery
floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping
their mattresses in the water either.

Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind
on the islands.

It would be mighty difficult to leave piles of garbage on the water,
even if they tried.


Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about
boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are
extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care
about boats in it.

Lee

Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of
the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that
anchor in the wrong places.

By the way, do you have many coral reefs in the UK?

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

That's a really good idea. You'll make so many friends and gain so much
respect that way. Be sure to curse and make obscene gestures as they go by
too. You wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity to make an
impression.

This is all a great way to ensure that, when others don't have a legal
obligation to consider your needs. they are considerate anyway and even to
be really sure that, should you ever actually need somebody with a powered
boat to assist you that they'll do so without hesitation.

Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

KingOfTheApes wrote

Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind
on the islands.

I suppose it's happened, but it darned sure doesn't happen often. Boats big
enough to carry batteries, don't work without them. They have to have them
to start the motors. It's really unlikely that anybody would go to all the
trouble to drive their boat out to an island with a spare battery on board,
change the battery while on the island and go to all the touble to take the
battery off the boat just so they can leave it someplace where it will later
have to be collected by another power boater. It could happne, but I don't
know why.

It's much more likely that any batteries you round were taken to the island
for use by somebody camping there. They may or may not have gotten to the
island by power boat, but the batteries you see almost certainly weren't
lift there because they are power boaters.

Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of
the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that
anchor in the wrong places.

In more than 45 years of diving, and boating in the Caribbean, no, I've
never heard of it. I have heard of them dying because of fertilizer,
sewerage and other chemicals washed our from those on land who have less
consideration than either you or I do. I have heard of reefs destroyed by
sewage outfalls operated by Miami Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties. I
have heard of reefs destroyed by "accidental" leaks of millions of gallons
of raw sewage from Miami Dade about twice a year. I have heard of reefs
destroyed by those that dispose of thousands of tires as "artificial reefs"
that nothing ever lives on.

Here's a clue. Gas floats. Reefs don't. Anchors don't do much damage and
their use is not limited to motor boats. Sailboats and even kayaks carry
them too.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 22, 4:08 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote

Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind
on the islands.

I suppose it's happened, but it darned sure doesn't happen often. Boats big
enough to carry batteries, don't work without them. They have to have them
to start the motors. It's really unlikely that anybody would go to all the
trouble to drive their boat out to an island with a spare battery on board,
change the battery while on the island and go to all the touble to take the
battery off the boat just so they can leave it someplace where it will later
have to be collected by another power boater. It could happne, but I don't
know why.

Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have
one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though
because they are water and leakproof.


It's much more likely that any batteries you round were taken to the island
for use by somebody camping there. They may or may not have gotten to the
island by power boat, but the batteries you see almost certainly weren't
lift there because they are power boaters.

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think
MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO HAVE A DEGREE
OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS. I, personally, would prefer that
they stay home watching baseball and drinking beer.


Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of
the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that
anchor in the wrong places.

In more than 45 years of diving, and boating in the Caribbean, no, I've
never heard of it. I have heard of them dying because of fertilizer,
sewerage and other chemicals washed our from those on land who have less
consideration than either you or I do. I have heard of reefs destroyed by
sewage outfalls operated by Miami Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties. I
have heard of reefs destroyed by "accidental" leaks of millions of gallons
of raw sewage from Miami Dade about twice a year. I have heard of reefs
destroyed by those that dispose of thousands of tires as "artificial reefs"
that nothing ever lives on.

Here's a clue. Gas floats. Reefs don't. Anchors don't do much damage and
their use is not limited to motor boats. Sailboats and even kayaks carry
them too.

Lee

My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;)

How much you need for a motorboat?

But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents reported in 2005 resulted in 697
fatalities, 3,451 injuries, and $38,721,088 in property damage.
Florida had 973,859 registered motorboats and 603 boating accidents in
2005.
Approximately 70% of all fatal boating accident victims drowned.
The most reported type of accident was a collision with another
vessel.
Overall, carelessness/reckless operation, operator inattention,
excessive speed, and operator inexperience are the leading
contributing factors of all reported accidents.
The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%). Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004. A decrease was observed in the number of
fatalities involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats from the number of
fatalities reported in 2004."

http://www.rueziffra.com/practiceAreas.php?id=14

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

That's a really good idea. You'll make so many friends and gain so much
respect that way. Be sure to curse and make obscene gestures as they go by
too. You wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity to make an
impression.

No, you have to nice to people, even the ones that threaten your life.
It's the Christian thing to do. That's why I tell them, "Hey, don't
eat me, you can eat my banana!" ;)


This is all a great way to ensure that, when others don't have a legal
obligation to consider your needs. they are considerate anyway and even to
be really sure that, should you ever actually need somebody with a powered
boat to assist you that they'll do so without hesitation.

Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo
helped us recover a sunken kayak.

It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them
are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice.


Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just
fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there
that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the
beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you
there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps. ;)

C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1
mile from shore?


You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the
daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.


One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.


You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light. ;)

You just go for it and pray to come out alive.


You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.


Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The
ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or
declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle.

Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more
rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are
needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you
can always choose the smaller motorboats out there.

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.


The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%).

And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without
the context of the relevant contributing base population also being
provided.

Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004.

With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising
that the observed total also increased?

A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities
involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats...

Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a
group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered
if the relevant contributing base population context was included ...
which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made
that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine
causality.


-hh

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have
one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though
because they are water and leakproof.

Batteries in boats are generally protected against sea water or of a type
that is not easily damaged, like the AGM battery you use. As it happens I
use them too. As for getting depleted, that's what chargers are for. By
the way, your battery is much more likely to become depeleted than mine.
Perhaps it Kayakers that are leaving them.

You do know that, by putting a trolling motor on your kayak, you're
classified as a power boat, right?

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think
MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO
HAVE A DEGREE OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS.

Yet, in the same post, you identified yourself as a power boater.

My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;)

It's almost exactly the same threat as mine. An anchor that sets and stays
in place, does very little damage to anything and there's already a law
requiring people to anchor in adjacent sand areas rather than on coral.
Chain and line, on the other hand, can do quite a bit of damage, whether
attached to a kayak or different kind of power boat.

How much you need for a motorboat?

Which power boat? I have three and, as I've already mentioned, a kayak.
Anchors for each boat is designed for the boat I use it with. My smallest
power boat uses an anchor just like the one I use for the kayak.

But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

What you can smell is not harming the reefs. As for what you doubt, I
suggest you learn a bit more before getting it wrong again. If you're
talking about human waste by those on boats, I'm afraid you'll have to
include kayakers in your list. It's legal for either of us to use the
ocean as a bathroom. It is not legal for me to discharge my head directly
overboard or to discharge my holding tank within coastal waters. The sewage
outfalls in Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties, on the other hand, pump
millions of gallons of partially treated sewage and chemicals onto the reefs
every day.

The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%) . . .

You know that includes your kayak, right?

I've been boating in south Florida for 54 years. I've never had an
accident. Imagine that.

Lee

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

It exists everywhere you're ever likely to be in your kayak. There's more
enforcement on the intracoastal, per boater, than in any city or state
anywhere near here.

Yes, you are a sitting duck, which is a really good reason not to go where
you can't be safe. I presume you would not ride your bicycle on I-95, which
would you ride you kayak in a zone where running on a plane is legal?

But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.

Yes it is.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

Depends on where you are. I was talking about the channel. It's not best to
predicably paddle out in front of a power boat legally on a plane. Out by
the buoys, is a different story. Both of you are responsible. There are
boats out there on autopilot and, no matter what color your kayak is, you're
not as visible as you think.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light. ;)

Yes, there are. You just choose not to travel to one of them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.

You can kayak to your hearts content in most of the lakes in south Florida,
places where no powerboater is allowed at all. You can kayak in any of the
no internal combustion areas in south Florida, places where power boats are
not allowed at all. You can cross any of the hundreds of acres of flats,
where power boats can't go at all. What's wrong with some places that power
boaters can go?

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience.

It depends, doesn't it?

Lee

Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
 

In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:





On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]


When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted,
but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows.

Garbage TV is the same everywhere.

I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American
dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in

No, we don't have much of the industrial pollution. Rules for the
oil industry are strict; and the plants tend to have localised
pollution, and are put in some desolate place between steep
mountains. The cruise ships don't go to those fjords.

They even put back some water in the waterfalls for the tourists
to watch. Normally any waterfall of any size would have been put
in pipes to make hydropower.


the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats
do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers
and other civilized people.

Nowadays, we MAKE a lot of those boats. And the Swedes make a lot
of the engines. Also sold in America.

The entrepreneurs among us saw Miami Vice, and thought "I can make
those cheaper and better".

-- mrr

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 22, 12:37 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of
the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that
anchor in the wrong places.

By the way, do you have many coral reefs in the UK?

We are only discovering the northern reefs this decade.

They are deep, 50-400 m; and have not been known except
as good fishing places. The shallowest is in the
Trondheim fjord right by the gusing currents at
40 meters plus.

Now the offshore waters are being properly charted, and
there are weekly discoveries of new reefs offshore.

Fishing regulations will have to be radically rewritten.
Lots of the reefs have substrantial trawler damage.

Putting in an oil platform makes minuscule damage in
comparison. After all, the only have a 100x100m footprint,
and want that on solid rock or deep shellsand.

We expect new, detailed charts over all the continental
shelf to be issued sometime in 2010.

-- mrr

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article ,
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?

The "salarimen" have taken to motorboating, with cabin cruisers.
They have the cash, but less time to learn to operate the craft.

Most marinas are built for boats up to 39'/12m length, 11'6"/3.5m
wide. The new cigar boats and cabin cruisers are too big for them,
so they are often forced to anchoring.


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

There is remarkably little pollution from watercraft of any type
around here.

Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.

There are some "peak" risk groups. The insurance for a cigar boat
without a proper skipper exam and practice is now about $100 per
horsepower per year. With proper traning documented you can almost
cut a digit from those prices. Some insurance agencies refuse to
insure 100 hp, 12 tons or 13 m/42' without skipper certifications.

The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%).

And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without
the context of the relevant contributing base population also being
provided.

Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004.

With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising
that the observed total also increased?

A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities
involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats...

Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a
group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered
if the relevant contributing base population context was included ...
which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made
that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine
causality.

Indeed.

Authorities here are reviewing ideas of zone separation for different
craft. 5kn speed limits proposed for motorboats outside zones, and
licensing for larger crafts with a point system for revoking the
licence.

-- mrr

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

Why not have a VHF? You can listen in to the VTC, and be told about the
big boats arriving in good time. I have a lot of use for that when
sailing inside VTC zones.

Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo
helped us recover a sunken kayak.

It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them
are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice.


Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

The law abiding skippers sometimes have a pretty hard time with all the
other craft. Just listen to the commercial fishing skippers.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just
fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there
that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the
beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you
there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps. ;)

C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1
mile from shore?

Zoning?

You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the
daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.

With sailboats, we can escape to the ocean. Very few bubbas and incompetent
motorboat skippers there.

One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light. ;)

Nope. But when you cross, do so in a way predictable to the large vessels.

They also need 5-7 knots of speed to be able to manouver properly. With
less than 3 knots they are dead in the water and need thrusters and/or
tugs to operate. You really DON'T want them to have to press the brake for
you.

You just go for it and pray to come out alive.

You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.

A few inquests has done away with that here. Suddenly the promising
salarymen were cons with drug&alcohol and violence crimes on their
records. Not what you would like on your CV.

Several of these inquests had other, experienced boaters who kept
their calm as witnesses.

Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The
ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or
declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle.

Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more
rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are
needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you
can always choose the smaller motorboats out there.

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete set of diving gear
for what a new Genua costs. And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

-- mrr

WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
 

Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.


-hh