"elyob" wrote in message
...

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone
have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Google is a wonderful thing. Then again, try
http://www.s106156335.websitehome.co..._retailers.htm

Most playboats / creekers / river runners / general purpose boats
are
plastic. Proper sea-kayaks are GRP. Opens can be some form of
plastic -
usually.

I commend http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/ and
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/ to you as other sources of
info.


Google is your friend for sure! I've met Dr Bennett's point of view
before
I've really met him!

I think most people who meet him in real life actually value his
knowledge and advice.
In this ng though he really gets under some peoples skin. Those people
mainly deserted this ng and can be found on the forum Mike Buckley
recommended to you. What he forgot to mention though was his own vested
interest in directing you to that forum. See if you can discover who
looks after the sea kayaking bit. :-)


All the advice given is great, and I hope others getting into the
sport will
find this thread interesting. I surely have.

New to a sport means finding your feet, but I'm glad so much response
has
been generated by my enquiry. Looks like this has been the busiest
thread
for a while in uk.r.b.p ..

Oh yes! Just watch when Dr Bennett turns up though. There will either be
rattle tossing aplenty, or this place will become like a ghost group
again. For a while...

Of course its all done in the best possible taste!

David Kemper
Not a fan of *******! grin!

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


Oh dear :-(
Lots to disagree with here!

I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc
..

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to
get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a
longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.
Otherwise, go
for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels
for
portaging too. Better still go in a group, it's safer too.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage. Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

No real disagreement, I do mention Sea Kayaks and tourers later. For a
beginner I don't think a marathon boat is ideal ( personal opinion though)



GRP rots. Apart from the seepage through the gel coat where it will be
cracked, it deteriorates with time and becomes osmotic. So you can
test a
boat and it appears watertight, but if you leave it long enough in the
water
it fills up osmotically.

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up. I have owned many GF boats and
about 6 plastic boats, and for long distances, GF wins every time.
Marathon paddlers (long distance specialist paddlers) universally use
glass fibre boats because they do the job better.

The point I was making is that most GRP boats are going to be a bit long in
the tooth, esp the ones advertised for £15 - £50 on ebay. I know I've sold
some. I've also destryed a couple. On old GRP osmotic leakage is a problem.
OPkay, so in a kayak it might not be so noticeable as you tend to ship some
water anyway. I'd also agree that a longer narrower boat is easier to paddle
in a straight line and they are faster. I did mention the Corsica, although
they are never going to be as fast as a kirton K1 - are they? But can you
get gear into a K1?


Since most second hand GRP boats will be getting a
bit long in the tooth - unless you go for a specialist boat, then look
for a
plastic boat. In fact, if you opt for a kayak, a sea-kayak or a
touring boat
with deck hatches would be adeal.

Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances could
put him off paddling all together.

Totally agree, don't see where I suggested a short plastic boat.


What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

Sitting in a kayak curves your spine the wrong way and it does get
uncomfortable, so some people lean back - which is bad for paddling.
You nee
d to warm up, stretch your muscles and lean forwards to get the best
kayak
paddling position. It still gets uncomfortable.

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.

This one didn't :-(



The best you can do is set the footrests, knee braces, and seat and
seat
back in the best position for you - and the trim of the boat. But
you'll
probably still get a sore back.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Your knees
are raised in the large cockpit area and are not covered by the deck of
the kayak. You brace your feet on the bottom of the boat and against the
footrest. You also operate the rudder with your feet (tiller bar between
your feet & protruding through a slot in the footrest). You sit on a
seat which allows you to rotate your hips. Backrests are not used. You
use your legs to thrust against the footrest to provide a link from your
paddle through your body to the craft. Paddles should be held as near
vertical as possible at the catch of the stroke. Balance is achieved by
keeping centre of the boat under your centre of balance or by use of the
paddles to either brace downwards or to pry upwards. This is done
continuously without conscious thought by the paddler. Marathon boats
are more unstable when not moving.

Here we do disagree, If doing a trip with kit, and are a beginner, I'm not
sure that a marathon boat is the best option.


What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


What speed can you continuously paddle in flat water with no current?
Believe it or not most people manage 4-5km at a steady pace. If you
try on a
canal, you can pass a canal boat at the leagl 4kph, but he has a motor
and
he'll soon pass you as you tire.

I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass me
unless I choose to stop. I usually pass several in a session. Some canal
boats, especially hired ones, try to go as fast as they can and create a
huge wash along the canal. These are the hardest to pass because you
have to climb up and over their wash. Note though that power boats on
the Thames can move much faster than canal boats and can create an even
bigger wash.

True, a marathon boat will outrun a canal boat, but in general...

So, on a canal, for instance, ignoring
locks, you might manage say six hours paddling per day, so 24km per
day.
However, if the current of the river is flowing downstream at 2kph,
and you
are paddling against it, that at least halves your speed and distance
covered.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster than
the flow!

Not nonsense. We can sit in the flow of a stream and watch smaller bits of
driftwood float past us. The drag of the hull in the water can make us
slower than the flow of the river.


How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW. IIRC the first 3 days of the 4 day races
are around 30 -35 miles. The total distance is 125 miles. Some paddlers
do this distance non stop paddling through the night. They try to catch
the high tide at Teddington just after it peaks because they want to
paddle with the flow rather than against it. The fastest flow is in the
3rd & 4th hours after high tide if I remember my RYA training properly,
but paddlers will be passing through Teddington before maximum flow.


You are equating yourself, an obviously knowledgable and experience marathon
paddler with a complete beginner. Unless he is exceedingly fit he will feel
the pain at the end of the first day - esp travelling upstream.


If you must, I'd find some buddies at your local club, get some
experience
in and persuade some kind soul to drop you off upstream and you and a
couple
of others paddle downstream.

I agree 100% with this last bit.

David Kemper
Not a fan of nonsense.

And obviously not a fan of smaller boats :-)

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

Ewan Scott

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


much snippage, apologies to those who can't follow.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak
or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage.
Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not
the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I
find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

No real disagreement, I do mention Sea Kayaks and tourers later. For a
beginner I don't think a marathon boat is ideal ( personal opinion
though)

I also wouldn't recommend a very unstable (but much faster) marathon
boat.
A beginners marathon boat is not much different from a touring boat.
Long smooth skinned boats will always be quicker than short rough
skinned boats. Narrower boats are faster too but only for someone with
the skill and balance to stay upright in them. A beginner will need to
practice in stable boats until they become more experienced and can
handle a less stable kayak.


The point I was making is that most GRP boats are going to be a bit
long in
the tooth, esp the ones advertised for £15 - £50 on ebay. I know I've
sold
some. I've also destryed a couple.

A canoe club will have a variety of boats a beginner can borrow while
training. Once the beginner finds the most comfortable boat for them,
they can buy their own similar boat. Once in the racing community there
are always second hand boats available for sale. The club notice boards
usually have a choice of several.
You don't get much for £50 though.

On old GRP osmotic leakage is a problem.
OPkay, so in a kayak it might not be so noticeable as you tend to ship
some
water anyway. I'd also agree that a longer narrower boat is easier to
paddle
in a straight line and they are faster. I did mention the Corsica,
although
they are never going to be as fast as a kirton K1 - are they? But can
you
get gear into a K1?

I have done. I took a Discovery beginners marathon kayak down the Severn
from Welshpool loaded with camping gear. This involved small rapids and
shooting a weir under one of the road bridges. I thought I was in
trouble at one of the rapids as I was so heavily laden I got stuck on
the bottom and had to pull myself along by hand. I managed to get the
front stuck while the back was still in the current and ended up
sideways on to the flow. I did manage not to fall out and recovered by
going backwards for a short distance, totally out of control. Going
backwards in a boat with a rudder is not to be recommended in shallow
water as the overstern rudder is hinged to lift if bottoming, but the
hinge only works if you are going forwards.


Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist
boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances
could
put him off paddling all together.

Totally agree, don't see where I suggested a short plastic boat.

Oh sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I also have a Master plastic boat but I
wouldn't want to go very far in it on flat water.



What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of
beginners
tour?

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.

This one didn't :-(

:-) Maybe you weren't doing it right? Some expert coaching may have
helped your technique and posture.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Marathon
boats
are more unstable when not moving.

Here we do disagree, If doing a trip with kit, and are a beginner, I'm
not
sure that a marathon boat is the best option.

Not any marathon boat but a stable beginners marathon boat would be very
suitable. DW has been suggested as an aim so starting off by learning in
a marathon boat is very good ground work, and has to be better than
starting off in less suitable boats.



What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal
boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass
me
unless I choose to stop.

True, a marathon boat will outrun a canal boat, but in general...

Marathon = long distance which is what paddling & camping on the Thames
will entail. No point in making it harder by paddling an old tub.


(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate
than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of
the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as
the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster
than
the flow!

Not nonsense. We can sit in the flow of a stream and watch smaller
bits of
driftwood float past us. The drag of the hull in the water can make us
slower than the flow of the river.

Er, what is the hull dragging on? Think about it. We aren't talking
about very shallow water. The only thing I can see that might cause that
effect to be seen is windage.


How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW.

You are equating yourself, an obviously knowledgable and experience
marathon
paddler with a complete beginner.

No I'm not, I'm actually very unfit as I've not been paddling much
lately. I went only 2 miles on the canal last night and was feeling
quite tired by it. I need to paddle more often to rebuild my stamina &
fitness and to improve my paddling technique. I can talk about it, but
I'm not really very good at actually doing it! I'm trying to present a
novice with what is possible given some training and some practice. Most
of what I know is from knowledge gained second hand as one of my sons
raced for Great Britain and has paddled DW, including finishing the
course when DW was cancelled one year. He also won the Gudena long
distance race in Denmark. Experience and knowledge are gained through
practice and are also added to by observation. I've been on support
duties for DW several times.

Unless he is exceedingly fit he will feel
the pain at the end of the first day - esp travelling upstream.

Very true, but just like any other new form of exercise.

And obviously not a fan of smaller boats :-)

Not actually true either as some of the most enjoyable racing I have
done was in Wombats on the river Trent. I'm fairly large (bloater might
be more acurate) and cannot enter a Wombat cockpit without turning
sideways to get my hips past the cockpit rim. The Wombat sits so low
that a spraydeck is essential to prevent swamping. Races were over about
250 metres. The wash generated by these little boats is unbelievable!
Small boats are ideal for some things, long distances just aren't one of
those things.


Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

David Kemper
Not a fan of unsuitable kit.

elyob wrote:

It'll be a while before I can afford a Knoydart! ... The guy at the tra=
ining=20
place down the road said me in a sea kayak is like a formula one car fo=
r a=20
trainee driver.

Eh?
Roos bought a 2nd hand glass McNulty for =A3200 last year. Needed a bit =

of work, but only with gelcoat filler. It's reasonably short for a sea=20
kayak and would be fine for a deep river dander. Sea boats tend to be=20
stable and straight running. They're relatively hard to turn, but how=20
maneuverable do you need somewhere where narrowboats can manage?

But as before, I would personally go for an open canoe for this job.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

David Kemper wrote:

A Canadian canoe is much slower especially paddled solo.

Yes, but this is only a problem if you're in a degree of hurry
inappropriate to an open boat! OP might be, but might not...

Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry.

It's a lot easier to paddle a Canadian 2 up from a technical skill point
of view, as well as just the extra motive power side. Solo open boat
needs a bit of practice with a good J stroke, and you can't just get in
and go to the same extent you can with 2 paddlers or a kayak. But with
a bit of practice solo open canoe does go places. Personally I find the
requirement of a bit more skill to work it is a nice thing (as long as
I don't get past what my own skills can deal with, of course!), but I
can see how people would just view it as making life difficult.

I find my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

In flat water you can just sit on the seats. Where I come down off the
seats for rough stuff I actually find it's my ankles that suffer rather
than my knees, but the boats I use have been lined with Karrimat by
their owner. Overall, especially on flat water, I find the possibility
of more than one seating position makes the open boat more comfortable
than a kayak over a good stretch of time.

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up

And I've seen GRP hulks that were basically porus /completely/ restored
to seagoing quality with a suitable dose of TLC. TSKC has an anasacuta
which was basically a write-off hulk but was rescued, made waterproof
again, had a skeg added and a rear oval hatch in place of the old round
one. None of that would have been easily possible with an old plastic
wreck.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

I'm going slower, but /can/ paddle for 6 hours: sea touring this may
well be necessary. But from a touring perspective I'd say the where and
the whereabouts are probably more important to the paddler than the how
far and how fast, which are clearly uppermost in a marathon paddler's
mind for good reason. I'd sooner dander down the river in a canoe, but
clearly tastes vary.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

Ewan Scott

In message
"Ewan Scott" wrote:

Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

I'd find that a bit hard to believe. What will make a difference is
wind/breeze. The twigs may have been going faster than the water because of
wind, or more likely a head wind was slowing you down. In the absence of
wind effects, a boat should travel at the same speed as the water.

I think the original discussion was over a comment that progress was slower
downstream. I took that to mean that speed over the water was less when
going with the current than against it. Thus 2kph current and 4kph boat
speed = 2kph upstream, but not quite 6 kph downstream. This I find quite
likely, as there's less incentive to push hard when going downstream. Also,
in shallow water, bottom drag will be greater going downstream, as that is
related to speed over the ground.

Alan Adams

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

David Kemper wrote in message
...

I think most people who meet him in real life actually value his
knowledge and advice.
In this ng though he really gets under some peoples skin. Those
people
mainly deserted this ng and can be found on the forum Mike Buckley
recommended to you. What he forgot to mention though was his own
vested
interest in directing you to that forum. See if you can discover who
looks after the sea kayaking bit. :-)


I do - although quite why I should have any "vested interests" in
"directing" anyone to UKSKGB (which I edit) is totally beyond me given
that
the site is non-commercial and doesnt benefit anyone other than the
people
who contribute to and use the resource and create its success. VERY
much a
"community effort".

Hope it helps you.

It helps me not at all as I already knew who edits that section of the
guidebook.
It is getting to be like spam. Any time someone visits this newsgroup,
up will pop Mike Buckley telling them to visit "his" site instead.
At the same time paddlers moan about how this newsgroup is very quiet
and not as interesting as the old days. They like the simplicity of
newsgroups and the ease of searching them but some of them do their best
to ensure it remains dead. Surely either a paradox or vested interests
at work.

David Kemper
Not a fan of spammers.

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the
water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you
are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play
on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but
small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn
sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

Ewan Scott

Hmm, what do you think causes this effect?

David Kemper
Not a fan of drag.

"Alan Adams" wrote in message
...
In message
"Ewan Scott" wrote:

Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you?
I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the
water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you
are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/
play on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but
small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn
sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read
approaching
rapids.

I'd find that a bit hard to believe. What will make a difference is
wind/breeze. The twigs may have been going faster than the water
because of
wind, or more likely a head wind was slowing you down. In the absence
of
wind effects, a boat should travel at the same speed as the water.

This is what I think too.


I think the original discussion was over a comment that progress was
slower
downstream. I took that to mean that speed over the water was less
when
going with the current than against it. Thus 2kph current and 4kph
boat
speed = 2kph upstream, but not quite 6 kph downstream. This I find
quite
likely, as there's less incentive to push hard when going downstream.
Also,
in shallow water, bottom drag will be greater going downstream, as
that is
related to speed over the ground.

This also makes sense, but in the context of paddling on the Thames, we
are talking about deep water.

David Kemper
Getting worried because I'm agreeing with people. Oh, the shame.....