On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:



the rules of the road inland or at sea say the un powered less
maneuverable vessel has the right of way and the real watch out is on
the overtaking vessel.

"The Nav Rules are written with the understanding that not all boats
can maneuver with the same ease. Therefore, Rule 18 states that
certain vessels must keep out of the way of other vessels due to their
ability to maneuver.

A power driven vessel underway must keep out of the way of the
following:

o A sailing vessel, under sail only, and vessels propelled
by oars or paddles. (Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it
is considered a power driven vessel).
o A vessel engaged in fishing, whose fishing equipment
restricts its maneuverability. This does not include a sport fisher or
party boat and generally means a commercial fishing vessel.
o A vessel with restricted maneuverability such as a dredge
or tow boat, a boat engaged in work that restricts it to a certain
area, or a vessel transferring supplies to another vessel.
o A vessel not under command – broken down.

Each of these vessels must keep out of the way of the next vessel in
the hierarchy. For example, a sailboat must keep out of the way of a
vessel engaged in fishing, which in turn must keep out of the way of a
vessel with restricted maneuverability. And everyone must keep out of
the way of a vessel not under command.
"

that being said unofficially tonnage rules.
or you can decide to get mad and do something about the drunken
assholes. this can range from getting a citizen group together or
direct action.

a granade or a can of white gas with a blasting cap floated in front
of a cig boat. sure makes the scum of the water into so much scrap. A
nice chain just under the water does a good job as well.
I do love the sound of bubbas beer can breaking his tooth.

mainly my advice is to get out of the cancer coast and move to a place
with humans.

here is a link to the inland rules of the road.http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm
read it carefully and don't try to go head to head with a jet ski.
however they have side numbers and you can report them and bring
charges.

PS. in case you didn't notice Lee is a Plexiotomy recipient.

In South Florida is a bad idea to be a manatee. So much so that it may
become a verb...

Suzy wrote:
...so you won’t get manateed, I mean run over.
Gus wrote:
LOL at that.

Oh, I missed that. Maybe it will become and entry in the next
Webster’s Dictionary…

Manatee (v): to live in South Florida and get run over by motorboats
while kayaking, just like manatees.

Shark (v): to live in South Florida and own a big superfast motorboat
while intimidating others.

***

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

Take your pick go north or south east or west from the cancer coast
and you soon get a higher proportion of humans to Bubbas.

On Aug 14, 8:39*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.

If you believe that, then quit your complaining. *You chose to be low on the
food chain. *They chose not to be. *They benefit and suffer for their
choices. *You benefit and suffer for yours. *If you don't like it, change
your choice.

Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't
like it, grow up!"

Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid,
suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun...

Imagine a world where nations invade nations, your sister is raped and
your kids get bullied at school.

Well, much of it is already happening, and it comes right from the
top...

(just from today's news)

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=222358

Not even bikes are as insignificant as kayaks to be ignored by the
law. And not that it makes a big difference, but, oh well, that's
another subject.

"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message
...
On Aug 14, 8:39 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.

If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on
the
food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their
choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change
your choice.

Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't
like it, grow up!"

Not defending it. Just recognizing it.

Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid,
suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun...

Your choice. Take the good with the bad.

For what it's worth, I have a Kayak too and, for that matter, rode my
bicycle about 10 miles today.

Lee

On Aug 15, 6:36*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message

...
On Aug 14, 8:39 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:

The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before.
If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on
the
food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their
choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change
your choice.
Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't
like it, grow up!"

Not defending it. *Just recognizing it.

Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid,
suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun...

Your choice. *Take the good with the bad.

For what it's worth, I have a Kayak too and, for that matter, rode my
bicycle about 10 miles today.

Lee

TO RECOGNIZE WE HAVE A PROBLEM IS HALF THE PROBLEM.

DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT IS THE OTHER HALF.

Hey, we all trying to survive in the jungle, but DOES IT HAVE TO BE
THAT WAY?

Are the predators going to laugh their way into extinction?

In article ,
Lee Bell wrote:
ComandanteBanana wrote

Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish...

Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your
position on the issues you did address.

The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF
WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS?

Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh you
by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and
yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned
into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back,
that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's call
survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory.
They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do.

Other than that, here's another anwer. You don't have to give right of way.
Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common
sense, have the right of way over powered ones.

With modifications.

If you are in a defined VTC area the vessels in the "motorway" have
right of way to anything crossing. These are clearly marked on any
chart. Dates from the Copenhagen protocol of 1859, with later extensions.
Flag states have authority over the VTC, even in international waters.
(Was never ratified by the confederate states, though).

The VTC operator is king. Listen to VHF on the VTC channels to get
updates.

Ferries and other officially scheduled traffic comes next.

Then there are three conflicting sets of rules.

1) The "seamanship" rules.

* Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc.
* Planes under landing and takeoff have next right of way.
* Overtaking boat yields for the overtaken.
* Propelled (including rowboats) yield for sailboats and planes.
* Planes yield for sail (until Jun 1st 2006 this was the other way around)
* Engine yield for non-engine
* Sailboats with the wind from port yield for other sailboats with the
wind from Starboard.
* Sailboats yield for other sailboats with a higher angle into the wind.

2) The "useful" rules.

* Boats carrying payload have first rights.
* More payload = more right of way
* You shall not disturb a vessel that cannot manouver as well as you can.

3) Biggest carries the day.

* I am bigger than you are.

Interesting point is that you must yield for planes, even if they
are overtaking. With sea planes it can be hard to distinguish the
transition from plane to vessel some times.

As of June 1st 2006, military or SAR vessels with blinking blue
lights have first priority over all.

Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

But, if convicted of wrongdoing they can have the book thrown at them.
DUI, reckless driving, endangering ship traffic, violations of a score
of SOLAS regulations etc. We have a couple of cases each year where
skippers end up with a year or more of hard time.

They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated, report
them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for
automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and
quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are
maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.

Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like
crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in
front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience
than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just
like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of
traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the
channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that.

Big difference between VTC and non-VTC areas. VTC is more like a
runway for planes. You really _should_ listen to the traffic controller,
even in a canoe. Especially in a canoe.

We have done many dives in VTC areas; they are usually very cooperative,
and we have to follow a given timeslot, and report in as all other VTC
parties do.

But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
(they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
call...

You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way on
the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them?

While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's
not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. For all you
know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course
from one point to the next. Your assumption that he chose to bother you is
a bit off the mark.

I can confirm than going off autopilot is a definate hassle. If he
was following a marked sea lane he would probably think of you as a
nuisance; and have the law on his side.

I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more
room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going
behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go
through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his
path, you also had the option to give yourself more room.

Also, signal your intensions by making course adjustments if you have to,
and do it early. BTW, the really large vessels run anti-collision systems,
and have to log collision alarms. If they behave like a**h*les you can
buzz them a little by triggering those alarms. You can do so at a safe
distance, you just need to set a colliding course, and stay there for
a minute or two. The radar and anti-collision systems will pick you up.

-- mrr

In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:
On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:




Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]

This territory is sharply defined as the coastal waters from
Mandal (just west of Kristiansand) to just south of Smogen. These
are a sheltered morass of crisscrossing small fjords, and except
for finding the shallows and rocks (with the boaters are very good at),
there is no real challenge in navigating.

West and north of this area there is a whole different culture.
Same for Denmark. There is far between ports, you need to handle
the weather. The larger fjords make excellent wind and wave
tunnels; you can have a storm at the center, and total calm on
land. You have to handle stretches where navigation can be an
issue; e.g. finding the little ports in between all the rocks.

I put the good seamanship in most of Sweden up to the fact that it
is the most well organised place on the planet.

Take your pick go north or south east or west from the cancer coast
and you soon get a higher proportion of humans to Bubbas.

-- mrr

[1] But the story of the motor torpedo boat that ran aground
and killed a cow is true. It actually happened twice, in
1954 and again in the 1970s. The first cow was almost cut in
half, the second one died of a heart attack.
The Navy has "improved the charts" a lot by finding shallows
and rocks noone has know about. They are very good at finding
them at 40 knots as well.

On Aug 19, 3:25*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:

1) The *"seamanship" rules.

* ** Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc.

I do have a dive flag that use when snorkeling, but just got a
"protest" red flag, which I learned later was for sailboat races...

Anyway I intend to fly it for two purposes: 1. to be seen, and 2. to
protest against the Law of the Jungle, currently in practice
everywhere in the seas.

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

I'm afraid the laws are made to fit the big ones, of course...

HOW THE LAW WORKS... FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LION
One day the King of the Jungle, tired of being called AUTHORITARIAN,
gathered the most cunning animals in the kingdom, chief among them the
Foxes, and told them: "It's mighty unjust that I am not recognized for
what I am. You know full well that the best of my SCRAPS, after you,
go to the Little Animals... Well, I want you to write LAWS, so from
now on it'll be them, and not me, who would rule over this God chosen
kingdom..."

After a few months of hard deliberations (and a few "private parties"
and "business trips") the Foxes (now turned politicians) returned with
a long, long book of laws written in a language so hard to understand
to the Little Animals that they thought it was old Greek. After
translation, it started like this: "The animals with a mane will be
treated like kings; the animals with paws and teeth will be above the
Laws; and the animals who will represent the interests of the Little
Animals, us, will be granted a raise in benefits and status... Of
course, ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION will be considered ILLEGAL, and
will result in the Lion eating the Little Animal..." (Moral: The trick
is in the law.)

On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.

I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,
Two meter troll wrote:





On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:

Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia?

any place where you get actual sailors.
I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i
observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either
inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat
handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged
squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over
the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an
over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any
rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts
as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters).

In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered
waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ;
"bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar
boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the
VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast
majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1]


When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted,
but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows.

I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American
dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in
the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats
do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers
and other civilized people.