In article
,
KingOfTheApes wrote:

On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.

I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

At least they don't whine at extended, exhaustive length, looking for
someone else to blame.

On Aug 21, 2:10*pm, Steve Hix
wrote:
In article
,

*KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote:
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:

The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?

Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer.

Steve

You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle.

I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our
troops."

At least they don't whine at extended, exhaustive length, looking for
someone else to blame.

They do blame somebody else: Hussein, WMDs, terrorists...

But I'm talking about the safety of those very activities (green,
healthy) that should be promoted, not be left to the Law of the
Jungle.

Hey, fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs.

(This is a contribution by the very same person who sold me the last
kayak. Reporting from the watery jungle)

Flex 029 wrote:
hi folks, first time here .. met Sr. Commandate Banana at my shop ..

one way of dealing with this problem is to NOT paddle in these areas
on weekends.
when i go on any given week-DAY, there’s usually nobody around -
EXCEPT for all that damn trash~


Howdy Flex, good to see you here so we can discuss how best to survive
out there. I totally agree with you, and in fact I stay away from the
waterways on weekends. The weekends belong to the predators, so to
speak.

I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

As you know, the beautiful kayak I’ve got from you is as bright as
sunrise (that’s the color), as well as the lights and flag I’m getting
from you. So if the superfast, superbig boats don’t see me is because
their drivers (I deny them “captain” status) are superdrunk and
superhigh.

Hey, we’ve developed the same strategy for survival! Actually it was
developed by the early mammals at the time the dinosaurs ruled the
earth.

That’s kind of metaphorical, isn’t it?

wpns4l wrote:
"this thread is crazy lol. stories of lions and the jungle.

do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

Hey, you seem to be ready for “the jungle” in that picture. Either you
have big guns… or have a banana to go in there (I have to tell the
metaphorical meaning of it).

Anyway, I do carry a cell phone, and I assume they don’t see me. But
I’m not sure that’s good or bad because then I get all stressed out
over the damn boats, and it defeats the purpose of the kayak, which is
to relax. In other words, I ignore them.

So, I go back to one of the favorite slogans of the revolution,

“Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”

I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery
floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping
their mattresses in the water either.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about
boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are
extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care
about boats in it.

Lee

In rec.boats.paddle Lee Bell wrote:
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery
floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping
their mattresses in the water either.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about
boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are
extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care
about boats in it.

We have a canal here called the I&M canal. Around 1996 a dam rupture caused
the canal to drain exposing all sorts of stuff. We were on the bike trail
the following weekend and were looking at all the recliners, washing machines
and stuff in the canal. The canal is only open to canoes and kayaks and I
don't think many canoeists or kayakers were taking washing machines or
recliners in their boats... course, I could be wrong...

Most of the larger garbage was concentrated near bridges...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

On Aug 22, 12:37 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes,
including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said
motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe
with proper lights for night time.)

In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery
floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping
their mattresses in the water either.

Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind
on the islands.

It would be mighty difficult to leave piles of garbage on the water,
even if they tried.


Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about
boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are
extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care
about boats in it.

Lee

Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of
the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that
anchor in the wrong places.

By the way, do you have many coral reefs in the UK?

On Aug 22, 4:08 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote

Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind
on the islands.

I suppose it's happened, but it darned sure doesn't happen often. Boats big
enough to carry batteries, don't work without them. They have to have them
to start the motors. It's really unlikely that anybody would go to all the
trouble to drive their boat out to an island with a spare battery on board,
change the battery while on the island and go to all the touble to take the
battery off the boat just so they can leave it someplace where it will later
have to be collected by another power boater. It could happne, but I don't
know why.

Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have
one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though
because they are water and leakproof.


It's much more likely that any batteries you round were taken to the island
for use by somebody camping there. They may or may not have gotten to the
island by power boat, but the batteries you see almost certainly weren't
lift there because they are power boaters.

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think
MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO HAVE A DEGREE
OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS. I, personally, would prefer that
they stay home watching baseball and drinking beer.


Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of
the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that
anchor in the wrong places.

In more than 45 years of diving, and boating in the Caribbean, no, I've
never heard of it. I have heard of them dying because of fertilizer,
sewerage and other chemicals washed our from those on land who have less
consideration than either you or I do. I have heard of reefs destroyed by
sewage outfalls operated by Miami Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties. I
have heard of reefs destroyed by "accidental" leaks of millions of gallons
of raw sewage from Miami Dade about twice a year. I have heard of reefs
destroyed by those that dispose of thousands of tires as "artificial reefs"
that nothing ever lives on.

Here's a clue. Gas floats. Reefs don't. Anchors don't do much damage and
their use is not limited to motor boats. Sailboats and even kayaks carry
them too.

Lee

My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs.

How much you need for a motorboat?

But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents reported in 2005 resulted in 697
fatalities, 3,451 injuries, and $38,721,088 in property damage.
Florida had 973,859 registered motorboats and 603 boating accidents in
2005.
Approximately 70% of all fatal boating accident victims drowned.
The most reported type of accident was a collision with another
vessel.
Overall, carelessness/reckless operation, operator inattention,
excessive speed, and operator inexperience are the leading
contributing factors of all reported accidents.
The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%). Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004. A decrease was observed in the number of
fatalities involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats from the number of
fatalities reported in 2004."

http://www.rueziffra.com/practiceAreas.php?id=14

On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

That's a really good idea. You'll make so many friends and gain so much
respect that way. Be sure to curse and make obscene gestures as they go by
too. You wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity to make an
impression.

No, you have to nice to people, even the ones that threaten your life.
It's the Christian thing to do. That's why I tell them, "Hey, don't
eat me, you can eat my banana!"


This is all a great way to ensure that, when others don't have a legal
obligation to consider your needs. they are considerate anyway and even to
be really sure that, should you ever actually need somebody with a powered
boat to assist you that they'll do so without hesitation.

Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo
helped us recover a sunken kayak.

It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them
are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice.


Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just
fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there
that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the
beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you
there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps.

C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1
mile from shore?


You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the
daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.


One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.


You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light.

You just go for it and pray to come out alive.


You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.


Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The
ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or
declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle.

Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more
rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are
needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you
can always choose the smaller motorboats out there.

KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.


The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were
open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin
motorboats (14%).

And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without
the context of the relevant contributing base population also being
provided.

Increases were observed in the number of reported
fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats,
and houseboats from 2004.

With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising
that the observed total also increased?

A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities
involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats...

Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a
group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered
if the relevant contributing base population context was included ...
which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made
that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine
causality.


-hh